Caroline or Change ending POSSIBLE SPOILERS (maybe)

[Penalers]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 4:44pm

A friend of mine and I were talking about COC and he was saying that at the end of the piece, he thought Caroline died. Now, reading over it, it seems to fit in. What do you think? Does she die?

[Plum]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 4:47pm

What? I didn't get that impression at all. At the end of "Lot's Wife," Caroline decides to put aside her pride and go back to work for the Gellmans so that her children (especially Emmie) can live out their own dreams.

[Matt_G]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 4:47pm

No, Caroline does not die, she goes back to work. Listen to the last few songs again and you'll hear it.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 4:50pm

At the end of the show, Caroline is alive and well, raising her children and has learned to accept her job and her station in life. She's not dead, just the opposite -- she's learned to let go of all of the frustrations that were making her (and everyone around her) miserable and has started to breathe again.

[Penalers]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 4:58pm

I was thinking the same thing and then I reread the part in the last scene between Caroline and Noah where caroline says:

My sorrow go where my heart grow calm,
When you stop breathing air you get
oh so calm,
no fire down there
so it's calm calm calm
and there's never any money
so it's very very calm
but you miss
oh you miss
the sun and the moon
and the wooden bassoon

What could that be reffering to if not her death? And the fact that she's talking to Noah when they are not in the same place.

There are some other instances that point to this death idea, but I need some time to find them lol.

Posted: 11/29/04 at 5:06pm

Her sorrow has died...she has found a place to put her troubles, accepted what life has given her and is moving on. She's burying the past.

[Plum]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 5:20pm

Noah refers to the fact that Caroline has gone back to work for the Gellmans and apologizes for hiding from her. This would indicate she's still alive after "Lot's Wife."

[misterchoi]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 5:30pm

Hi Jeremy. Ok everyone! Don't respond so matter-of-factly. I believe in art, and therefore I attest to the beliefs of freedom of interpretation.
My Belief:
Caroline has died in some way at the end of the piece. Now, as the piece does deal with symbols, metaphors, etc., it is up to interpretation. Here are examples to prove my point, though there is a small chance I might be wrong :

"Lot's Wife" Functions as the end to Caroline's anger and life. Just like Lot's wife, in the end, she has died. The stage directions state that the children and Caroline are going to church, and that at the end of the number they come on stage in their church garbs. I infer that they are going to Caroline's funeral. Emmie enters, "sullenly", carrying her mother's clothers, and hands her mother's clothes to her mother. They all run ahead, and Caroline follows, almost like a funeral march.

Following this is the song "How long has this been going on?" A question many ask after suicide, wondering how long the depression had been taking place. Not to say Caroline killed herself. They sing of salty teardrops becoming one with the ocean. She has metaphorically drowned.

Caroline appears in her maid uniform, as Noah is in bed. This is the only way Noah ever saw her and the only way he would remember her. This is how he conjures her in his head. Noah leans out the window to speak to Caroline, who definitely did not live right outside of the Gelman house.

He asks if they will talk again. Caroline says

"someday we'll talk again. Just gotta wait." Screams death to me.

The moon then sings:
"...Unsuspecting bring us these secret little tragedies."

Noah asks what it is like underwater. Caroline could not afford to be buried above the ground, and there is no underground in Louisiana but their basement,so the ONLY reason she would be underwater is because she has been buried.

She says that underwater is like the sound of her mother's instrument. Which hasn't been played since her mother's death.
Its like "sleeping with the lights out"

She proceeds to speak about what happens when you "stop breathing air you get oh so calm" and how you miss the sun, which one wouldn't see when buried.

The song ends. The only stage direction is that "Caroline puts out her cigarette." This is the end of the musical before the epilogue. That is symbolic for her death.

The epilogue, sung by Emmie, functions as a eulogy and elegy in this show. Her mother has died. As Caroline walks off the stage the stage directions say she "gives her daughter the stage" passing life and the matriarchal position to her. She sings because she now understands her mother, what her mother went through. SHe forgives her mother. She sings that (I think) even though her mother is dead, "still her strong blood flow...down to (HER CHILDREN) larry, and emmie and jackie and joe the children of caroline thibodeaux" This elegiacal piece is a testament to what her mother was and that change must come.

Caroline lived in a world of change. Caroline couldn't deal with change, and does not change. She escapes from change. This doesn't mean she hasn't learnt her lessons.

I believe the piece is a concrete piece, but I believe that it escapes into the surreal and abstract at many points, through symbols. Though everything can be looked at many ways, which is the artistic genius of Tony Kushner, I believe there is more than enough evidence to take this one of many stances.

[Plum]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 5:35pm

Call me literalist, but like I said- right before Caroline says she'll talk with Noah again, he says she came back to work. Caroline did kill herself in a way- she put away her own dreams and pride, "put Caroline away" because she couldn't afford her, as "Lot's Wife" said. Caroline doesn't "exist" anymore because she's existing for her childrens' sake. I don't see how that becomes a literal death.

[misterchoi]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 5:46pm

The epilogue also starts with the moon singing

"Mornin, mornin in the air
silver sparkle on the green
world awaken to prepare
for the consequence unforseen."

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 5:59pm

Interesting thoughts everyone, but again, Caroline isn't dead in any literal sense -- she has "killed" that part of herself that longed and hoped for more than she had and now lives on without those dreams that tortured her. For her to be literally dead at the end of the show might be an interesting interpretation of the lines that you cite, but it would make absolutely NO sense in terms of the overall piece (especially considering the epilogue with her children). Her death would consign her children to a life of poverty and mean that their dreams WOULDN'T come true and that her sacrifices were in vain -- this is clearly NOT what Kushner was intending (and he's said as much in interviews and post-show talkbacks about Caroline).

Have you seen the show or are you relying on the libretto, because I've had many many conversations about the show with over a dozen people who actually saw it (I saw it 4 times) and that interpretation never came up. There's was nothing whatsoever in Wolfe's original staging (especially, again, taking into consideration the epilogue among other things) to suggest that Caroline was anything but alive and continuing on with her life (being finally at peace) at the final curtain.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 6:00pm

But Noah says 'I'm glad you came back to work today' or something along those lines. Unless she's actually buried in the basement, then that would seem an odd line, no?

Also, the little boys tell Emmie in the prologue to be quiet, lest they wake Caroline. Now, Anika Noni Rose can SING, but girl can't sing loud enough to wake the dead.

Although, yes, there are many, many ways to interpret many, many works of art, I'm willing to bet my entire bank account that Tony Kushner himself will say that Caroline is not physically dead at the end of the production.

[misterchoi]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 6:35pm

Well, I personally have seen the show nine times and the soundtrack is unfortunately or fortunately the only thing I have listened to for the most part of four months. I am quoting the libretto as opposed to the production as the libretto is the actual piece and the production is the piece through George C. Wolfe's mind. I do think that his production supports my theory.

The song that they sing(mama sleepin, she work all day...) in my mind hearkens back to an african song, as it has that feel, and I feel as if Caroline has returned to her roots. She is asleep, as in dead. Now, to tell you the truth, I believe she died, but I don't care what part of her has really died. Her body parts, her anger, whatever. There were great consequences and there is no reason Caroline would go back to work other than that being the most logical choice. But the lyrics just don't correspond with that logic happening. What consequence has occured then? Theatrically, the piece intimates that Caroline has moved on. Whether she has moved on from life or job or anger is up to you, and I don't like how literal death would be in this case, but to me it is a freeing thing, not something to impose poverty on her children, but she has finally changed the only way she can while still keeping her dignity.

The other way to look at all of this is that she has gone back to work which is the same as death but has escaped the samsara that is her black experience.

Why would she miss sharing cigarettes if she was still working for their family?

It just doesn't seem to be a closed issue to me, but it is the most wonderful work to investigate, isn't it?

[misterchoi]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 7:54pm

maybe a bump?

[BreakingTheCircle07]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 8:05pm

I love this thread, but I think we should be more careful in responding to someone else's dramatic interpretation. Unless Tony Kushner himself comes on to this board and tells someone they misunderstood something horribly wrong, I don’t feel we have the right to tell someone “No” regarding their personal take. “Caroline” is rich in metaphors and symbolism. No one person can be correct.

Sorry for the rant.

EDIT: I just realized I don't appologize for that rant. I didn't accuse anyone of being wrong and I wasn't offensive, so I'm glad I did it!

Updated On: 11/29/04 at 08:05 PM

[dididda]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 8:14pm

wow, what an insightful and interesting thread. i like it!
i think misterchoi's interpretation is facinating and it can be seen either way, at first i was like nuh-uh but misterchoi explained it rather well so ill have to listen and decide which way i like best, hehehe. sybolism is so fun! haha

Posted: 11/29/04 at 8:15pm

I so want to see this show.

[Plum]

Posted: 11/29/04 at 8:24pm

Why would she miss sharing cigarettes if she was still working for their family?

Caroline actually stops letting Noah light her cigarettes in the middle of the show. It's in "Quarter in the Bleach Cup," I think.

I still disagree with your interpretation, but keep thinking that if you want to. *shrug*

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 12:54am

Kushner doesn't have to come to this board to respond to this theory -- I have heard him three times discuss this show at length in aftershow talkbacks and panel discussions with Tesori and in all those hours of in depth discussion there was NEVER even the slightest suggestion from him that Caroline is dead at the end of the show. Just the opposite. I'm not going to rehash again what I've already said about the show and its symbolism -- what I've said is based on my own take of what the ending means which was fully and completely supported by what Kushner himself has said on the topic.

Feel free to discuss your theory -- it IS interesting -- but from what I've heard Kushner say on this subject, your theory undermines his overall intent for the piece.

Updated On: 11/30/04 at 12:54 AM

[gcal]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 12:58am

Interesting thoughts...
I saw COC this last weekend. What a WONDERFUL night at the theatre. I was very impressed and glad that I got to see this dynamic performance (from Tonya and everyone else).

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 2:25am

Another interesting thread coming from Kushner.

one thing I'd like to add is just a general thought that Kushner has always used birth/death metaphors is all of his pieces. So, I think it is easy to make lots of his plays (which are so quasi-realism) into interpretted death or birth. However, I think he uses these metaphors as a way to confirm an audience that is diverse and united by a generally human love of birth and hate of death...he can play with these metaphors easily. However, it can become problematic if audiences don't "get" what is "really" happening.

However, with that said...I'd love to see a revival of this show where Caroline dies. That could be easily done with the right staging (assuming Kushner would sign off on the idea), and would be an interesting new stop on Caroline's journey.

This show, unlike some others we speak of on this board (Brooklyn, Wicked) gets better and better the more it gets talked about.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 2:41am

But if Caroline dies, what do you do with the epilogue? Without Caroline bringing in the meager but very necessary $30 a week, it's almost certain that Emmie has to drop out school to take care of her two younger brothers and, with no degree, the only job she'll likely get is, unfortunately, as a domestic. Ironically, she'd probably end up taking her mother's place at the Gellman's. This undercuts the entire show by rendering "Lot's Wife" completely nonsensical and destroys the hope for the future that Emmie sings about in the epilogue. Emmie wouldn't be singing proudly "I'm the daughter of a maid....," she'd be singing "I'm a maid just like my momma and now I'm trapped and bitter just like she was and have no chance to achieve any of my dreams for the future ...." or something to that effect -- we could start the whole show over again at that point with Emmie alone in the basement singing with the Radio, Washer and Dryer.

That is NOT even remotely what Kushner was trying to say with "Caroline, or Change" (according to interviews). Yes, everything is up for interpretation and symbols and metaphors can have many possible meanings, but taking your theory to any possible logical conclusion destroys the message of the show and is ultimately unsupported by the text.

Updated On: 11/30/04 at 02:41 AM

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 2:45am

Can I just say how refreshing it is to have a new, insightful, provocative thread on here? I haven't even seen the show yet and I'm thoroughly engrossed by everyone's comments and analysis.

*contented sigh*

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 3:08am

Well, there is that long section of music after Lot's Wife where it all gets explained. I, of course, agree that she does not die in the current version. However...

It could very easily be a Death of a Salesman we paid off the house "We're Free. We're Free." kind of moment if we can agree that Caroline had the foresight to get life insurance money (not terribly out-of-period for her culture).

Another possibility (although objectionable in some ways in my head) would be to have the Gellman's take Emmie and the kids in (thus propelling Emmie's response of I'm a daughter of a Maid lines by way of her finding her roots in a white home).

I think it can work with the theme of standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before if it is staged right.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 11/30/04 at 3:24am

It could very easily be a Death of a Salesman we paid off the house "We're Free. We're Free." kind of moment if we can agree that Caroline had the foresight to get life insurance money (not terribly out-of-period for her culture).

The bitter irony in Death of a Salesman is that you can't get life insurance money from a suicide, so Willy dies senselessly. Besides, with Caroline's money troubles, I don't think she can afford to pay monthly into life insurance.

I agree with Margo; symbolic conceits are nice, but you can't read the death imagery literally and take it to a logical conclusion. I do think misterchoi's wonderful analysis of death imagery adds to the idea of Caroline's finality, though.