Comparing NINE to NINE to 8 1/2

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 12:53pm

I just rewatched the movie "8 1/2" last night after seeing the film version of "Nine" a few days ago. I also listened to the OBCR again to refresh my memory of seeing the show on stage. Comparisons are fresh in my mind, and I can see more of both the strengths and weaknesses in this latest incarnation.

The film of NINE is much closer in structure and content to the original 8 1/2 than the stage musical ... with one glaring exception: the overall tone. Googling around, I discovered some interesting trivia that Fellini had a note written to himself that he taped right below the camera. It said (in Italian), "Remember, this is a comedy." He was so right to keep reminding himself of this while he filmed his original masterpiece. And it shows on the screen. He takes great risks with time, space, chronology, surreal imagery, disjointed locations, etc. And if Guido's emotional dilemma were played with a serious tone through all of this, it would make Fellini's creative gambles far less palpable. The maestro director knew that. He also knew he was making fun of himself, the narcissistic infantile genius, as much as he was revealing truth about his struggles with life, work, and love.

The biggest problem (as I've said in other threads) is the treatment of the protagonist Guido. His women all seem to be playful enough, enjoying the romp (except for the dour Luisa, another huge mistake), but Guido can barely crack a smile or raise a mischievous eyebrow, because he's too busy brooding incessantly over his own midlife crisis.

Marcello Mastorianni did not play Guido that way, nor was he directed that way. Even though Guido's at creative and emotional crossroads in his life, there are times where he seems disinterested, happily distracted, or completely disconnected from it all. Even as he wanders through each of the movie's episodic scenarios. It makes the later moments where he lets us inside to see how torn he is FAR more effective. Those moments are few and far between. Not all the way through.

By restructuring and rewriting the scenes in the movie NINE to be more like 8 1/2, there is a big problem that arises with the character development and particularly the song order in this musical film. These songs are from the stage show (for the most part), and there was a conscious structure to their order. They reveal things about the characters in a logical and dramatically interesting way. Even though Guido wanders from episode to episode on screen, they can't just be shuffled around at whim to fit another film's structure. "My Husband Makes Movies" was sabotaged by moving it later in the film, only to state the obvious--something we've already been watching for the last 45 minutes. Luisa also sings it as a simple statement, making the lyrics idiotic. It's just exposition about her, her husband, and their past together. Completely wrong. The song isn't a statement, it's an ANSWER that Luisa gives to a group of reporters (early on in the story) who are grilling her about her husband's affairs and his unscrupulous lifestyle. She's not weak or reflective while she sings it. Only in the bridge of the song, when she talks about what they once were, do we see a melancholy side to her. And she quickly shuts that off when she finishes the song and her "comment" to the reporters.

BIGGEST MISTAKE IN THE MOVIE:
Luisa --- They took away all of her strength. She would have to be a tough woman to be married for all these years to Guido. She doesn't amount to more than an emotionally unstable "fangirl" who just happens to be married to her mentor in this film. Guido is a big child in the movie. It makes no sense that he would marry someone who needs more babying than he does. And it weakens all of her moments on screen, despite how brilliant Marion Cotillard is as an actress. She's no match for either Karen Akers (stage) or Anouk Aimee (8 1/2), and that has everything to do with the re-writing of the part, not the performance of it. She enters much later in the story, just as she does in the original 8 1/2. But when she shows up, she's a pitiful wreck of a wife. She has nowhere to go from there in the story. No emotional journey. She goes from painful martyr to painful martyr. No character arch at all.

Everyone seems to be complaining about Nicole Kidman arriving so late in the film, but this is exactly how Claudia is portrayed in 8 1/2. She comes in "at the eleventh hour," has one key scene with Guido, and then leaves. Same thing.

Some here have questioned why Saraghina pulls up a wooden chair on the beach, yet in 8 1/2, there is a shot of her being observed by young Guido, while she's sitting in a wooden chair on the beach. This isn't a tribute to Fosse's "Cabaret." It's from the original Fellini film.

I do wish they had made Fergie a little more "grotesque" or campy-looking in the B&W sections on the beach. Mess her hair up and makeup a little bit. She's living in that crude hut, after all. Practically homeless. When they cross cut to the studio musical number, then clean her up (as they did). It would have been more effective if she'd looked a little more destitute in the flashbacks.

The only performer who really seems to capture the essence of the original Fellini film is Penelope Cruz. In her own words, Carla is playfully sexy, yes, but also something is seriously "off" with her mentally. She doesn't realize how eccentric and funny she is. I think Cruz was dead-on in her approach. And fortunately, with a lot of Carla's original scenarios restored from 8 1/2, she has a chance to do it.

I don't have any problems with the musical numbers evolving out of Guido's mind on a film set. It's actually perfect for this material. The only problem is that Marshall didn't go far enough with it. Guido shouldn't be limited to seeing these women on his set. Early on, Marshall has Guido speaking with his dead mother (Sophia Loren) in his car while he's driving. He also has the young Guido show up at the end, on screen and on location with the grownup Guido. Great! But those moments don't happen anywhere else. And they should be everywhere.

We (as an audience) should constantly be on our toes, wondering what is real and what it imagined. Saraghina (still the young Fergie) should have shown up standing in a crowd at a press conference, or sitting behind the cardinal in the bathhouse with the grownup Guido, for example. A group of clowns playing band instruments should dance by the hotel with Guido and Carla walking outside. Guido should be seeing glimpses of Claudia everywhere as well. And Luisa. And members of a film crew should be seen shooting his own life. Break the constraints of time, space, and reality. That's what Fellini did in 8 1/2. He kept us slightly off-balance and puzzled throughout. Is this whole movie inside Guido's mind? Is anything really happening? Or is it all a dream? Or is it a documentary about making a film? Or just a dress rehearsal?

NINE (the movie) is too structured. The surreal elements mostly happen on that large soundstage in Guido's mind. They should be happening everywhere.

STILL ... with all of its shortcomings, I liked the film immensely. I'm going to see it again today. It's a noble attempt, and it succeeded on many levels. It could have been a GREAT film, though. One for the ages. Seeing this movie and seeing 8 1/2 again made me realize just how close they came.

Close, but "no cigar."

Updated On: 12/29/09 at 12:53 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 1:30pm

One other comparison ... there is a blonde American journalist in 8 1/2, clearly where Kate Hudson's character came from. She's much older, though, but she is part of Guido's inner circle.

I also loved the mix of nationalities in 8 1/2 (not much different a concept than the movie NINE). And I loved how sometimes they spoke English, and sometimes Italian. Sometimes horribly dubbed, too! I almost think that was a joke. Like Barbara Steele (a British actress) playing Gloria, a character not in NINE.

Saraghina (the original in 8 1/2) was played by Chicago actress Edra Gale, who was years later in the movie "Somewhere In Time" as one of the actresses in the theatre company with Jane Seymour.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 1:32pm

Wasn't horrible dubbing Fellini's thing?

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 1:37pm

Never more so than in 8 1/2. Good GOD! But I think it's on purpose. Another (humorous) way of reminding everyone (both Italians and Americans) that this is a film (get it, a film) ...

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 1:54pm

Besty, I'm not going to read your post until this weekend when I'm planning on watching 8 1/2 and NINE, the movie, but I thought this would be a good thread to post this really neat article by Charlotte Chandler, Fellini's biographer in which she states that she thinks Fellini would have sneaked into a theatre, seen NINE, and loved it. Of course, it's all speculative, how could anyone really know? But still, I think it's a great read. It's also nice to know that Fellini did like the fact that two of his movies had gone on to become successful Broadway shows. Here's a blurb:
Rob Marshall has given us the definitive homage to Fellini, always in the spirit of the great Italian director yet never imitating him. I think that Fellini would have been especially pleased by Nine because it is not a re-make of 8½, but a true homage, which stands on its own. I can't speak for Federico, but I can hear him saying, as he often did, "What do you think, Charlottina?" I almost saw 8 ½ with Federico. During one of my visits to Rome, I was told by Fellini that a small theater was showing the film, many years after its release, and we rushed right over only to find a decrepit cinema, mutilated print, ancient projectors and miserable sound. Except for a snoring man and an attentive dog who seemed to be enjoying the film well enough, the theater was empty.

Fellini rushed out in panic, calling back to me, "You can stay if you wish. I ran out, following him, to Cafe Rosati, to drown our sorrows in coffee and patisserie. That was the day I almost saw 8½ with Federico Fellini.

I knew Fellini well enough to know that he would've slid down into a theater seat to see Nine and he definitely wouldn't have left. Sliding down in the seat was left over from his childhood spent at the Fulgar Cinema in Rimini when he saw a film he truly enjoyed and didn't want his mother to find him, and drag him away.

I wish Fellini could have been here to speak for himself about Nine and I know all of you wish it, too.

I believe Federico would have paid this film of Nine his highest compliment. He would've called it "Felliniesque."
Charlotte Chandler on Fellini and NINE

[matineeidol2013]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 3:22pm

FANTASTIC points best12bars. couldnt agree more about luisas character arch (oh wait, there isnt one, as you said there isnt growth, strength, anything!)

i am one of the few who agrees with you that the songs taking place in guidos head and on the soundstage worked very nicely.

you seem like an intelegent person who understands art well, best12bars. i enjoyed reading your post imensley.

[matineeidol2013]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 3:22pm

woopsies double post

Updated On: 12/29/09 at 03:22 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 3:27pm

Excellent analysis, Besty.

Charlotte Chandler is an odd bird. She seems to have written a biography of everyone she ever met at a cocktail party.

[jewishboy]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 3:52pm

I completely agree. I wish you were a critic.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 4:51pm

Thanks so much for writing this, Besty.

Of course, now I'm leaning towards NOT seeing it.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 5:58pm

Thanks for sharing that article, ray! Fascinating.

And thanks to all for the kind support on the post. Miss Penny, I'm sorry if I talked you out of seeing it. There's much to love about NINE. There's also frustration in the elements that don't quite work. But since you love "8 1/2" so much, I could just see and hear you throwing things at the screen, saying, "Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!"

Then they'd have to call security ... and it would get ugly. Hey! If only that scene were in the movie itself ...

[D2]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 6:05pm

Beautifully written, Besty - articulate, thoughtful and pretty much an accurate assessment of the film (although I think I'm a little less critical of it than. you )

Miss P., you know that "8 1/2" is J2's favorite film and he hated the Roundabout revival of NINE. (He never saw the original production, or any production for that matter.)

Well, he loved the movie.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 6:15pm

See? See? It' can be loved!

I'm glad you like my thoughts on it, but hey, it's just one (wordy) opinion.

Miss Penny might have a completely different reaction.

As I said in another thread, it's still one of the most creative films I've seen in a long time. There are some truly breathtaking moments in it.

[Marquise]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 6:26pm

But since you love "8 1/2" so much, I could just see and hear you throwing things at the screen, saying, "Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!"

That was me at my first screening of the film.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 6:58pm

I think your story about Fellini's little note is the sticking point for me, Besty!

So much of the original film is dark and really sad (at least to me), so the scenes that are sweet or comical just complement the dramatic moments so well. (After young Guido visits La Saraghina on the beach and the clerics round him up is hilarious slapstick, which serves as perfect juxtaposition for the following scene in which he is reminded of how depraved he is, forced to kneel on the beans and made an example of to the entire school. Heartbreaking.)

We feel compassion for the boy and, so, become more forgiving of the man.

I'll probably see it. But, Besty, how can ANYONE be as funny as Sandra Milo????

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 7:23pm

Sandra Milo (as Carla) and Marcello Mastroianni (as Guido) in the famous bedroom/eye-liner scene from Federico Fellini's original 1963 film OTTO E MEZZO ("8 1/2"). Rob Marshall used this scene in his adaptation of NINE.




Sandra and Marcello in the train station scene (also used by Rob Marshall for NINE):


Sophia Loren with Marcello Mastroianni and Federico Fellini on the set of OTTO E MEZZO ("8 1/2"). She came full circle with NINE.


Claudia Cardinale as Claudia in Fellini's OTTO E MEZZO ("8 1/2"):

[bk]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 7:25pm

Re 8 1/2, one mustn't forget the wonderful memory scenes of Guido as a boy, with the warming up of the bed and that stuff - wonderfully warm and moving - it's not just the stuff on the beach. And yes, lots of amusing things in 8 1/2, plus, for me, an obvious consistent vision, naturally, given it's Fellini. And just because Sarghina has a chair on the beach (one chair, one person), does not mean Rob wasn't "borrowing" from Mein Herr - he most certainly was - in fact, it shocked me a little just how blatant it was - the garters, the same chairs, etc.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 7:31pm

Miss P--maybe you should go see Nine the same day I go see Night Music and we can meet somewhere for a drink and scream "Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!" until we get it out of our systems.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 8:27pm

LOL---I would fly in just to see the two of you do that, PJ.

[americanboy99]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 9:23pm

I've seen the film 4 times, and I've found new things- good and bad- with every viewing.

This last time- this afternoon- I really tried to focus on the characterization of Guido. Perhaps the most interesting moment in the film Guido-wise to me is at the very beginning of "Guido's Song." This is one of the only times Marshall cleverly weaves reality and the number on the soundstage together. It's choreography with the camera, a Marshall specialty that he displayed so remarkably in "Chicago." Unfortunately, he loses quite a bit of that here, though the beginning of "Call from the Vatican" is thrilling. But in this moment, the song is really moving the moment forward. It seamlessly moves the story forward, and it offers the audience a chance to see the lighter side of Guido, something that some would say the film lacks. Daniel Day-Lewis can do it; he can play the funny man; he can play the charmer. The script doesn't want him to.

In regards to Luisa, I would say Marion Cotillard is giving the most outstanding dramatic performance of the year, as well as the best musical performance of the year. If sacrificing the strength and perhaps more comedic lightness that Luisas have had in previous incarnations of this story means we still get the performance we have on screen, I am on Marshall's side. This performance is truly Oscar-worthy.

I do not feel as though "My Husband Makes Movies" is terribly misplaced. It is, however, saying something very different than it has ever said before. This is Luisa's soliloquy of desperation. Yes, she is weak. But, thanks to "Take It All" and Cotillard's brilliant performance, we'll see her strength later. And when we finally get to see her strength, it is DYNAMITE.

Wonderful film- flawed but really exceptional.

Close to perfect performances all around. My biggest problems are with Kate Hudson's entire character and the poor writing in what should be the "big scene" between Guido and Claudia. That dialogue was too complex for its own good and really, in retrospect, told me nothing. I watched Nicole Kidman singing a haunting song with true passion, but I didn't know what for until the song was long over.

These are, however, minor quibbles. Loved the film.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 9:36pm

"Daniel Day-Lewis can do it; he can play the funny man; he can play the charmer. The script doesn't want him to."

I completely agree! I have no problem with the cast or their talent and ability to rise to the occasion. The choices were made for them in the script and in the direction. They could have played it any number of ways. And I don't think they (as performers) fail on any level. They were completely convincing and committed in their acting and singing.


"My biggest problems are with Kate Hudson's entire character and the poor writing in what should be the "big scene" between Guido and Claudia. That dialogue was too complex for its own good and really, in retrospect, told me nothing."

Having seen it twice now, I agree there is a definite problem with that scene. The setup leading into the song (Unusual Way) is fantastic. From driving in the car to "I'd rather be the man," etc. But during and after the song, Claudia's points in the dialogue are confusing and muddled. The issue is the script. But I loved the work by Kidman and Day-Lewis in that scene. Too bad the dialogue wasn't focused enough at the end.

Thanks for chiming in, americanboy99.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 9:51pm

PJ, I'd LOVE to do that! (The husbands probably wouldn't like it much though. Then again, if I'M yelling "Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!" my husband will be snapping at everybody and calling Rob Marshall every profane name in the book. He's worse than I am in these situations! And much less forgiving!)

BK, the "Asa Nisi Masa" scene is my favorite in the movie. It makes me cry every time. Rota's music, the lighting, the stillness, the sense of home and longing, the love in Guido's mother's eyes as she carries him up the stairs and tucks him into bed, the aura of beauty that surrounds her and reflects the adoration a little boy feels for his mother. It's arguably the most perfect scene ever portrayed on film.

And it's practically silent.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 9:59pm

Miss Penny---it would almost be like the Rocky Horror Picture Show, seeing this movie with you.

Squirt guns, toast, toilet paper ... all hurled at the screen!

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 12/29/09 at 10:02pm

Unless I liked it!

Stranger things have happened...to me, in fact!

[Brick]

Posted: 12/30/09 at 1:27am

"NINE (the movie) is too structured. The surreal elements mostly happen on that large soundstage in Guido's mind. They should be happening everywhere. "

Yup. Biggest mistake.

Overall, fantastic job, Besty. I agree 100%.