Comparing NINE to NINE to 8 1/2- Page 2

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/30/09 at 1:17pm

I have to say that listening to the OBCR again, the whole "Casanova" movie sequence The Grand Canal is sorely missing in this film. I'm sure it was too expensive to do. Although it could have been done on flat, intentionally cheap-looking, "summer stock" sets easily and still worked very effectively for the movie. It's supposed to be a joke for him in his mind. The reason it's essential to keep is to see Guido turning himself and everyone around him into stylized Comedia Del Arte characters. The people in his life each have a fictional, exaggerated counterpart in this grand "musical comedy" film. It would have been great to see them each making fun of the people they were playing. A movie within a movie ... within a movie.

Guido is doing his best to find the humor in his creative and midlife crisis. He has blown it all up into a silly, grotesque cartoon of the real thing.

And ultimately, he can't do it. He can't find the humor. And it's not a "fun" situation. He "can't make this movie."

But if Guido believes in the seriousness of his predicament already at the beginning of the movie NINE, he has nowhere to go at the end. It's a the same sentiment all the way through. No dramatic arch.

Such a different tone in both the stage musical and the original movie of 8 1/2. Both were essentially tongue-in-cheek, clever comedies, with different interpretations, about a very serious personal journey, until their dramatic third acts and poetic endings. The serious and reflective moments resonate much more, because they are surrounded by offbeat and often dismissive humor. NINE the movie doesn't have this journey.

Yet I still like it!

For what it's worth, my partner saw the movie with me several days ago, and he's still thinking about it. It definitely resonated with him.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 12/30/09 at 1:26pm

It is very good if you have never seen the show. It is good if you have seen it as you know what is missing.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/30/09 at 1:45pm

The Grand Canal is terrific. I suppose it didn't need to be there, so maybe it wasn't "sorely missing." After all, it wasn't in 8 1/2.

What IS sorely missing is Guido's comedic view of himself and his situation. They could have done that any number of ways.

But I DO love "The Grand Canal" sequence! So nice to listen to it on the OBCR.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 12/30/09 at 10:38pm

I agree with what Best says, except for his general enjoyment for Rob Marshall's latest cinexcretion. His comments on the differences between Fellini's masterwork, the overrated musical and the vile film of the musical are admirable. I can't agree that Marshall's film is anything other than a disaster, except when the magnificent Marion Cotillard graces the screen.

I did like that they decided to cast Luisa with an actress of such appeal. One of the best jokes in Fellini's film has always been that Guido is married to the most beautiful woman in the film, the glorious Anouk Aimee, and it should become clear that if she's pissed off and bitter it is years of marriage to Guido that have made her that way: her radiant smile at joining Guido at the spa quickly changes to anger she gets a glimpse of Carla. One of the problems with the original production was Karen Akers' performance lacking any kind of appeal, sexual or otherwise. Who could blame Guido for wanting to sleep with the warm delicious Anita Morris when married to the bewigged broomstick bitch that Karen Akers gave us? I do wish they'd come up with something a little more humiliating for Luisa to go through in the screening room sequence -- it is an improvement on the same scene in the musical but is nowhere nearly as devastating as the same scene in Fellini. Anouk Aimee's enraged "va l'inferno!" is one of the more painful things in the film, and I always find it interesting to remember that her appearance in the final scene is merely Guido's fantasy -- he hasn't gotten her back in "real" life. I always wondered if she would take him back.

Judi Dench's character is an interesting amalgam of a couple of characters from Fellini's film that don't appear in the musical -- a costume worker in the production office who appears in one scene putting a piece of fabric on a dummy who says "ciao!" to Guido (she's played by the way by Edra Gale, who plays Saraghina, one of the more interesting bits of doubling in the film) and one of Luisa's friend, Rossella, played by Rossella Falk. Rossella is a bit of a psychic, and Guido asks her for guidance from the voices she hears. Dench even wears her hair in a similar haircut to Rossella Falk.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/31/09 at 12:32am

Very astute comments about Dench's character, Roscoe. I felt the same way about Kate Hudson's character, too. Great observations.

It's almost like they (Marshall, etc.) were grasping at straws, with pulling iconic elements and visuals from Fellini's movie to create these characters ... but ultimately making nothing of the elements.

One of the other MAJOR things I'm missing in "Nine" is they way Fellini's camera wandered around the extras ... sort of like Guido's roving eye. The way he would suddenly pick up on a beautiful woman or even an ugly man ... and follow them obsessively down a staircase or around a corner, simply because these were interesting faces. It's a director's eye focusing on character.

Marshall could have easily done that in NINE. It wouldn't have cost him a dime. And it would have given the audience a glimpse into the creative process of Guido Contini. Showing us that he's always thinking cinemtically. Even in the middle of a scene ... the camera would pull away and follow another character.

So many creative opportunities missed.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 12/31/09 at 12:34am

Besty, you're talking yourself out of liking it!

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/31/09 at 12:38am

I still like it.

When movies like Chipmunks 2 make it to the top of the box office heap, I'm painfully reminded of how much I appreciate an artistic attempt. Even if it falls short. I'd rather see THAT than 90 percent of the commercial crap that passes for movies these days.

So NINE wins. Even if it loses.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 12/31/09 at 12:46am

Besty, let's not seriously compare NINE to the Chipmunks sequel, okay? Without seeing EITHER one of them, I can comfortably say that NINE is a greater artistic achievement!!!

I'm sad about what you wrote regarding Marshall's choice not to focus the camera on different characters. Fellini's scene at the spa, for instance, when everyone is lining up for the water (and the little chubby nun runs up to the camera, puts her hand in front of her mouth and sort of giggles) is magnificently choreographed. Now I want to see the film just to see what Marshall DIDN'T do with it!!!

[Roscoe]

Posted: 12/31/09 at 7:05am

What surprised me most about the film is the way that almost all fun has been leeched from the story, the characters, the songs, and the very fabric of filmmaking itself. NINE is a big fat downer of a movie, based upon one of the most joyful works of art ever created.

Part of the blame has to go to Daniel Day-Lewis, who is quite simply miscast as Guido. Not an actor known for displaying joy or even anything as base as mere fun, Day-Lewis lays on the earnest self-loathing with a trowel without any of the mitigating charm that would make his character interesting or even bearable. His opening song is hideously ill-performed and directed with typically Marshallian stupidity, the opportunity for Day-Lewis to display any warmth in the amusing "duet with myself" is missed as Guido performs the song while climbing through some piping for reasons that pass understanding. And Day-Lewis' big breakdown is skillfully performed, but it has no impact because there's been no sympathy built up for his plight. It seems to take Guido a long time to realize what has been eminently clear to even the dimmest sentient audience member: the guy's an asshole. And the interminable epilogue (2 years later, for God's sake) ends with a whimper not a bang.

I'm trying to put into words something that has been eluding me. Among the many surprises in the film is the lack of energy going on. The movie just lies there onscreen, suffering from a total lack of gusto that I usually associate with the films of NINE's screenwriter Anthony Minghella and which is really unforgiveable in a film with delusions of being Fellini-esque. As painful as Marshall's monstrous CHICAGO is, it at least has energy -- the mad plot, the great score, even the outrageously caffeinated weed-wacker editing kept my interest as I watched the film through my fingers. NINE seems to be after a more serious "grown-up" vibe as it tries in vain to move back to it's roots in Fellini, but Marshall & Co., with their all-too-typical stupidity, miss one of the Maestro's most endearing traits: gusto.

Posted: 12/31/09 at 1:49pm

Roscoe, we get it. Even after you walked into the audition carrying the casting couch on your back, Marshall wanted nothing to do with you.

Give it up. Ripping Marshall to shreds at every possible opportunity makes you look nothing more than transparent. No one is telling you to praise him, but the fact that you simply spew vitriol at the mere mention of his name speaks volumes.

[logan0215]

Posted: 12/31/09 at 5:49pm

I think you've done a great job comparing each version of the work and would love to sit down and write my own analysis if I were able to corroborate all of my thoughts about the musical film. I do plan to go back and re-watch 8 ½ but wanted to point out that Saraghina does not, in fact, have a stool in her dance which "Be Italian" is based off of. See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJQuZXoyc5U

In short, I feel as though Day-Lewis never displays the quality that would make these women go mad for him at all throughout the movie. Because he is given so few chances to sing and so few chances to show his truly endearing side he ends up looking like a brooding child for most of the film, most noticeably in the scenes with Dame Judi.

There are so many conflicting opinions on the performances of each woman but I'd echo that Marion was probably the best and Nicole fell pray to bad directing and the lowered octave literally zapped all of the resonance and emotion behind "Unusual Way." Hudson was a welcomed cream puff of energy in the otherwise slowly paced film but ultimately seemed to serve no purpose. This could be excused when looking at Fellini on the whole, who often has disjointed vignettes in his films, but because this film sought so much to make Nine into a logical storyline it does feel out of place to have her pop up so randomly. Sophia, although serving as more of an iconic representation of Italian film in Nine, still manages to give a warm and fleshed out performance. That, and she's just great to look at. So ethereal.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 12/31/09 at 5:57pm

FindYourGrail, sorry if negative criticism of an incompetent hack offends you so deeply. Your resorting to personal attacks on someone who expresses a negative opinion speaks volumes about you, too.

Updated On: 12/31/09 at 05:57 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/31/09 at 6:18pm

"I do plan to go back and re-watch 8 ½ but wanted to point out that Saraghina does not, in fact, have a stool in her dance which "Be Italian" is based off of."

Sorry that I wasn't clearer, logan. (I thought I was.) It's not during the scene with Saraghina's rhumba. It's after that. Little Guido is spying on Saraghina while she is sitting on a wooden chair on the sand (just like the ones in NINE). She's staring out at the water.

And Roscoe, while I can't go as far as you have with your dislike of Marshall (I think he got many things right in this movie, and I think he's very talented in general), I completely agree with you about leeching the fun out, and the lack of gusto, at least as far as the non-musical "book scenes" go.

But most of the musical sequences do have gusto (not all), in my opinion. This is one of my problems with the movie overall: the change of tone and pacing between the musical and non-musical sequences. They are at odds with each other, and it's not effective so much as it is jarring.

[logan0215]

Posted: 12/31/09 at 6:37pm

Ah that'd probably be revealed to me in my re-viewing of 8 ½ ;]

I actually think the staggered pace between musical and non-musical scenes you mentioned is what makes "Take It All" come off less well than "My Husband Makes Movies." TIA is explosive and although the conversation in the screening room is passionate and extremely well acted by Marion, I don't think it works interspliced with the song.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 12/31/09 at 6:42pm

Best, yeah, there are moments of general frantic energy in the film, yeah, usually during the songs, especially the frantic "Be Italian, Mein Lieber Herr" and "Ooops Cinema Italiano I Did It Again." It is the book sections that drag so relentlessly. I sense Minghella's narcotic influence on the script. The movie just deflates during the dialogue scenes in ways that recall Minghella's horrific COLD MOUNTAIN and ENGLISH PATIENT. It may not be gusto that is finally lacking. I think there's just no joy to the proceedings. And ultimately, a film derived from Fellini's 8 1/2 that lacks joy is a film that disgraces itself.

Actually, Best, Fellini's Saraghina is sitting on a chair apparently working on a big piece of gauzy fabric, singing the lovely wordless Rota melody when little Guido re-appears. Her lovely smile and greeting of "ciao!" are reminders of Edra Gale's earlier appearance in the film in the production office sequence, where she's working on a piece of fabric and greets the adult Guido in the same way.

And we clearly disagree about Marshall. I see no talent there at all, not even minimum competence, more a concentrated aping of stylistic elements from better directors.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/31/09 at 6:57pm

I must have missed the gauzy fabric and the fact that she played the seamstress in the other scene. I didn't draw the connection with her sitting in the wooden chair on the beach (since she's facing away from the camera towards the water), but it's very cool. I've seen 8 1/2 now several times (since first viewing it way back in high school), and it's grown on me with each viewing. To be honest, when I first saw it, I thought it was a boring, jumbled, low-budget mess. I liked several of his films much better. (I still do: Cabria and La Strada, in particular, but also Ammacord.) Now, I think 8 1/2 is still pretty jumbled, far less boring though, and there is much to see, explore, and appreciate with each viewing. Still, not one of my all-time favorites, but I'm growing fonder of it instead of tired of it.

Did you know Edra Gale was an American? She was Chicago-born and lived there again later in life. When they cast many of the supporting roles in "Somewhere in Time," she got a part. I just watched the DVD yesterday to see her in it. She has two scenes as a "robust" (of course) actress with orange hair in the theatre troop with Jane Seymour. It was great to see her doing something so entirely different from La Saraghina.

Updated On: 12/31/09 at 06:57 PM

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 1/4/10 at 9:47pm

Besty, it was so neat reading your comments about NINE and its comparisons to 8 1/2 after seeing the movie yesterday.
I have to disagree with most in that I thought it was a very enjoyable, if a bit too slow for my taste, movie. It was beautiful and haunting in many ways and I found it quite impressive--breath-taking at times--especially during the musical numbers where Marshall is really at home.
As I said in another thread, I didn't have any problem with Marshall's treatment of the musical numbers, it's a concept that I found quite effective especially since in the stage show the numbers also occur in Guido's head for the most part. Having Guido imagine each number as the film he is unable to make works beautifully. If only Marshall had found an even and clever way to see it through. It works so well with the opening, "Folies Bergeres," "Be Italian," and others, but seeing Marshall try to fit Sophia Loren's musical number in there as hard as he could was just off-putting and it made little sense.
Really I think the film suffers from a not so great screenplay. Why is "Cinema Italiano" not performed during the press conference? The whole point is that the Italian reporters are grilling Guido, while Stephanie is asking him about his designers and the look of his film. Wouldn't this be the perfect moment to have the American journalist literally sing praises to Guido while cutting to the real life Stephanie being the only reporter giving him a chance? The number is so wonderful and Kate Hudson is fantastic in the role, but it feels too inconsequential and superfluous where it's structured in the movie. And going from such a high energy number to Luisa and Carla's suicide attempt is a huge mistake in terms of tone, IMO.
I loved the whole cast, they were each brilliant in their own way, and I actually found some humor in Daniel Day-Lewis' acting. I thought he was incredibly charismatic and funny in some of the proceedings. Judi Dench was simply a delight and I loved her number. Fergie was brilliant in every way, IMO, and I loved her as much during "Be Italian" as I did during the B&W sequences that were so beautifully shot. Nicole Kidman was perfectly cast. Penelope Cruz is such a good comic performer, and she is a riot as Carla. I did have huge problems with the way the script abandons the role. In the stage show it works so well that Carla has a moment of goodbye with Guido through "Simple." Cutting the number without replacing it with a final moment for the two of them was a big mistake, IMO.
The acting highlight of the film for me was Marion Cotillard who just blew me away. Her singing was spot on and unlike others, I found her take on Luisa really interesting. I did find her to be quite strong and so charming, and she truly seemed to love Guido. Her "Take It All" was disturbing in every way and she displayed such strength. I'd love to see her get an Oscar nod, she truly deserves it over someone like Sandra Bullock.
Overall, I really enjoyed the movie. Still, I have to agree with Besty, it could have been a great film and it almost was.

[best12bars]

Posted: 1/5/10 at 4:30am

Great to read your comments here, ray. I'm so glad you finally saw the film and didn't projectile vomit on it the way so many others here have done.

Have you seen 8 1/2? I would love to hear what you think of that film, now that you've seen NINE.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/5/10 at 3:53pm

I really loved Chicago, but I still can't help but love when Roscoe goes off on a tear about it. I may not agree with him, but he's certainly emphatic in his feelings about it, so leave my Roscoe alone!

I don't know whose brilliant idea it was to revert to 8 1/2 for the non-musical scenes, but for the life of me I'll never understand why so many movie musicals throw out books that already worked in the first place to just overload it with their own pointless crap, like when "Dreamgirls" all but pulled out a sledgehammer to beat you into the knowledge that THESE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE SUPREMES!

And Cotillard is too young for Luisa, especially now that Guido is ten years older.