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#1

Elia Kazan has passed away

Famed Director Elia Kazan has passed away.
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.

Updated On: 9/28/03 at 08:05 PM

#5

re: Elia Kazan has passed away

Admittedly none of us knows how we would respond to the pressures he was placed under but STILL....He helped damage too many peoples lives to have his HUAC experience glossed over as seems to be occuring in the obits. Funnily enough that same climate seems to be returning so ... enjoy the fame but regard the shame. RIP.
#6

re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

I know exactly how I wouldn't have responded and it wouldn't have led me to make a value judgment of the impact on other people's lives like: "There's a normal sadness about hurting people, but I'd rather hurt them a little than hurt myself a lot," he said.

A "little?"
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#7

re: re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

Can't we seperate the artist from the person? Wagner was a horrible anti-semite and a SOB to boot. His music is still glorious. Kazan is responsible for a great deal of the American style of acting and directing, both on stage and screen. He made a huge mistake under a great deal of pressure in a very volitile time. It is hard for me to judge him on his bad decisions and forget his lasting contribution to the arts.
PEACE.
#8

re: re: re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

I think all art is inherently political and that the separation of art and politics is impossible except in the case of willful ignorance (think Leni Riefenstahl's "I had no idea the Third Reich was killing anybody!" mantra). I also agree that Kazan was a great film maker. I also think what he did was unforgiveable without some measure of remorse on his part. So I stand by my statement that only the good die young.

I can't really listen to Wagner without thinking about his horrible anti-Semitism, which basically means I can't really listen to Wagner. No great loss, there's lots of other great music in the world.
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

Updated On: 9/29/03 at 12:58 PM

#9

re: re: re: re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

It's true. People make horrible choices in horrible times. But hindsight is 20/20. Hindsight shows that what occurred in the 50's was a horrible time in American history. And to not be able to say, 'I did the best I could at the time but realize I was wrong and am sorry,' is cowardly. And if he still somehow believes that what he did was 'right', then he's an idiot.

Seperate that art from the politics? It's nearly impossible, because an artist uses all of him/herself to create.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
#10

re: re: re: re: re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

The difference between Wagner & Kazan is that Wagner's odious anti-Semitism (as far as we know) did not impact other artists lives. Ditto Degas who was convinced that Dreyfus was guilty. I don't have a problem enjoying either Degas or Wagner for that reason.

But Kazan knew exactly what he was doing in betraying and destoying other peoples lives to save his skin.
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"
#12

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

No Suleen, You can. But some stoolies work I can deal with (Disney, Ginger Rogers, Astaire...yes, sad but true), While others I can't abide for THAT reason (George Murphy, Adolphe Menjou).
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"
#13

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

I prefer to judge the man on his body of work, although he certainly did do odious things. I suppose that at the end he will be judged somewhere out there, but we won't be there for it!

Miriam
Every movement has a meaning--but what the hell does it mean!
#14

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

C'mon Master, you can hardly put Menjou and Murphy in the same catagory as Kazan, Wagner or even Disney. So are you saying that because these artists were "inferior" or less influential than the others, we should write their body of work off?
PEACE.
#15

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I was watching STREETCAR last night and, although I really love that movie, it's hard for me to watch it without thinking what a bastard thing Kazan did. Maybe that makes me less of a person, I don't know. I just can't help it.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
#17

re: Elia Kazan has passed away

I think that is the point. To be as unapologetic for his sins as he was is unforgivable. He was selfish and cowardly. We all have faults his were more vicious that most. I find myself thinking of any collaborator in any war- While the regime is in power & you enjoy their generosity you cant then turn around & claim coersion. What I find particularly upsetting is how to of the obits i've read either do not mention the HUAC episode @ all or only in passing. HUMPH! There should be a special comment made in Tues TRUMBO performance!

Updated On: 9/29/03 at 03:16 PM

#18

re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

I do think those things can be believed and I do think that if a person admits that what they did is wrong and feels even a modicum of remorse, then it mitigates how I respond to their actions.

People have horrible, abusive relationships within their family units all the time. And other people behave in ways that are actually damaging to an even wider circle, their community, their professional community, their country or the world as a whole.

When I think of Kazan's response to the criticism, it really does remind of Leni Riefenstahl. There is no disputing that Triumph of the Will was a major cinematic achievement. But it was ALSO Nazi propaganda, an extreme example, perhaps, but illustrative of why I believe that all art is inherently political and can not be de-politicized merely be considering an entire body of it.

This was from the Kirkus review of books of Leni Riefenstahl's autobiography, and it seems as if her line of logic really did run in a parallel path to Kazan's:

"A sad and stupendously flat reminiscence by the doyenne of the German cinema, who even now seems unwilling to admit that she backed the wrong horse in 1933.... After the war, she was imprisoned briefly, and has been something of a pariah in the international film industry ever since. Here, she attempts to rehabilitate herself in the eyes of the world and to assert that her identity as an artist subsumed her political inclinations (which, if she's to be believed, were quite ambivalent toward Nazism). Hard to swallow, even with a grain of salt."
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#19

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I agree about Riefnstahl, Namo, however, Kazan was not approached,to my knoweledge, nor did he ever make a film about how wonderful Communism is or how great the HUAC comittee was and how we should embrace it. I have never been able to watch the Riefenstahl films (with the exception of the obligatory clips in the Holocost documentaries) because of this.

(By the way, OT, whatever happend to the film Jodie Foster was going to do on LR's life?)
PEACE.
#22

re: Elia Kazan has passed away

Suleen, in response to your earlier remark: I'm not saying "we" should write them off. I'm just admitting that I have a hard time enjoying their talents because their HUAC testimomies tend to overshadow them in my eyes. (I know, "It's just ME!") What can I say - some artists have enough artistry to make me forget their failings. Others don't.
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"

Updated On: 9/29/03 at 04:29 PM

#23

re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

But it is not only in his own art that he lives on. Like it or not, the seeds of modern drama were planted in part by Kazan. The man did help to revolutionize acting.


If only Nazism WAS history. I'm afraid the tenets have outlasted the party.

#24

re: re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

Not to be picky, since pickiness is not something I am known for, but I think Kazan was born a many many many centuries after the seeds of modern drama were planted. Grown. Harvested.
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none
#25

re: re: Elia Kazan has passed away

I know what you mean, Master.

This has been a very nice discussion. And for once, so far at least, probably the longest thread that has not stooped to TMM, BP,SF or sex.

Thanks.

Sueleen
PEACE.

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