Ethical Dilemma Regarding MTI- Page 3

[clarkstallings]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:39am

There is no dilemma here. This needs to be halted immediately, and if the offender has a mens rea, he or she needs to be punished. Aside from the stealing that is happening when royalties aren't paid, a director who changes the show in ways not allowed in nearly all contracts,is essentially saying to the writer of that show "I'm better than you, I'm smarter than you, you should've done it my way." I personally know few directors who can say that to any prominant writer seriously. If this director is so creatively smart, why isn't his or her own shows published? Odds are, their creativity doesn't even begin to approach that of the MTI represented author.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:43am

At this point, I'm over the re-writes and changes. I mean, the bitch it stupid for doing it - but what gets me most of all is that this "director" has been doing illegal productions for that number of years. It is disgusting.

I know that at my high school, my principal would not have allowed the auditions to even happen unless she knew that the rights were taken care of and everything was 100% legal.

My principal also happened to be the daughter of Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee, so she's clearly predisposed to art appreciation.


I am still outraged.

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:56am

Well, you aren't even supposed to announce the show until the rights are secured - and with good reason. Just a week ago, we were all set to announce a musical I'm directing this summer, only to find out at the 11th hour that the royalties were being pulled in lieu of a tour. It pays to cross your t's in theatre.

Frankly, it would be a liitle surprising if this teacher really had been performing musicals for years without paying royalties. I mean surely - somebody along the way - a parent, another teacher, an audience member had to have brought up the subject. It would take a pretty deliberate mind to avoid seeking "necessary information" on producing a musical, which would indicate that her intentions and motives are dishonest - even if she thinks she is doing this all somehow for her students.

I agree with nobodyhome - if you address it now, there may be time for the school to work out a deal with MTI. Nobody wants to "shut down" a high school musical - I'm sure all angles would be explored.

But - stay anonymous. Don't put yourself in the middle. Give MTI the info and let them take care of it.

[neddyfrank2]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:05am

Report it.

[Mr. Tuttle]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:32am

Are you really worried that reporting this will disappoint the kids? Is that why you don't report them?

But I like your idea. Don't report them. It's better that kids know that stealing is OK. It's good to show them that breaking the law is OK. It's good they'll learn how to steal someone else's property.

Hey..if we got away with it at school, why would a car be any different?

[etoile]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:56am

I find someone's moral outrage to be laughable. Please, munk, grace us with your ethical opinion on bootlegs. Perhaps you can try and rationalize how bootlegs are morally acceptable. Where's your concern for the copywrite holders when it comes to bootlegged material? I'm just having trouble reconciling your crusade in support of MTI when you're pissed at someone, but not concerned about theft of intellectual property when it's something you want. Wrong is wrong.

A cursory search produced:

"munkustrap178 Jul 17, 11:53 AM
Oh my god, this "Shhhh! Bootleg!!!!" attitude is so frustrating."

"re: Why is EDWIN DROOD CD so expensive? - munkustrap178 Oct 15, 04:04 PM
If you look on Ebay, be careful because once in a while, a bootleg copy is up and you mostly have to figure it out yourself
- because they never advertise it as being bootleg."


"re: bare a pop opera - munkustrap178 Jan 2, 04:05 PM
There isn't one.
Look around for some bootleg CDs, i KNOW there are some around......"

'Repeat after me:
"My name is _________, I am a Broadway fan, and I own hundreds of bootleg videos."'

"re: Broadway Sheet Music - munkustrap178 Jul 4, 03:21 PM
Colleen, illegal - yes - but enjoyable."

"re: Pre-Broadway LITTLE SHOP? - munkustrap178 Nov 8, 08:35 PM
There are some things we will never know. I know you spoke of a bootleg before, was that the reasons this was deleted? I think that's rediculous...."

"re: RENT MOVIE TRAILER!!!!! - munkustrap178 May 31, 11:56 AM
Anyway, I got the link from a different site and just watched it. I hope you guys didn't see the same bootleg I did..."

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 2:12am

Your quotes are irrelevant. They mean nothing.

1. I was warning someone looking for an Edwin Drood CD that you need to be careful and make sure it's a real CD. I have searched many times on Ebay for the DROOD CD, and whenever I have found one reasonably priced, it is clearly a "homemade" burned copy of the CD, not the actual CD release. I was not encouraging them to purchase the Cd, but, on the contrary, to make sure that if they DO look for it on Ebay to make sure that it is NOT a bootleg copy.

2. Someone wanted to hear the score, so I told them that I knew there was a recording somewhere of all the music. I didn't offer to sell it to them, I didn't say it was okay. I just said they are out there.

3. I was mocking people. How some are constantly saying "SHH! Can't say that word here!" I was making a tongue-in-cheek statement about the matter.

4. What is the point of that one? Makes no sense and makes no point.

5. I was referring to the fact that a poster mentioned a bootleg. I thought the deletion was ridiculous because of the word "bootleg." I didn't say ANYTHING about how owning bootlegs is okay.

6. The Rent movie trailer? You have taken this to the extreme. We were talking about the very early RENT trailer. There was a very early version of it recorded from a cell phone on you tube. That's all I was referring to. Not bootleg video, bootleg recording posted on youtube of a movie trailer.


The quotes you have pulled up do nothing to further your cause. They are all taken out of context, and if you were to actually go back into the threads and read the discussion, you would see that the mere mention of these things does not mean that I have disregard for private property, nor does it mean that I encourage bootlegs or think that they are an acceptable means of making money.

What I find quite sad is that you have taken the time to sort through past posts and find ANY mention of a bootleg that I have ever made. Well, I wish you had spend a little more time doing your research, because, if you have, you would have seen that - in the context of the conversations and threads - I said nothing objectionable OR contraditory to what I am saying now.

But thanks for trying to once again, put me down. It's not working. You have no point. Good luck trying to embarrass me and "catch" me next time.

[etoile]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 2:27am

They all go to your state of mind on the subject.

Yet you never did voice your opinion on the subject of bootlegs. Why?

As I posted it was a cursory search. I do realize so many threads in which you voiced your opinion on the subject have since been deleted. But I'd be glad to look for more quotes tomorrow, or you could just tell us now your feelings on bootlegs. After that perhaps you could explain how you see it differing from your MTI stance.

[millie_dillmount]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 2:56am

"for the sake of your own integrity, esp. if you have a relationship with this woman I say go to her first. If you sneak around doing it. You have to live with doing it behind her back. Two wrongs definitely don't make a right. You should be honest with her and then take action you feel is necessary."

How is reporting someone doing something illegally behind his or her back a "wrong"?

I can't believe some of the people's main concern on here is how the kids will feel. Yes, you're going to have devestated children, but that's life - they're not going to feel that way forever and there will be future LEGAL productions of shows to make up for it, as someone else said. A highly valuable lesson will be learned.

And etoile, I'm sorry but those quotes are out of context. Do you have hard proof that munk actually owns bootlegs? Please tell me you have honestly never stumbled over or saw a bootleg before.

Go straight to MTI; don't report it to the teacher.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 3:01am

etoile, did you have to bring that subject up here? Now the mods are practically obligated to delete this thread. Considering fiyero hasn't posted again since he first started the thread, what if he hasn't read the responses and still wants people's opinions? What MTI *is* actively seeking out stuff like this online, and this thread could have alerted them to contact fiyero themselves if he's still in a "dilemma" about it and explain his options?

If you have issues with munk, take it to PMs or the OT board. Don't doom the whole thread because you want to get back at munk for whatever reason. Be sensible.

Updated On: 10/19/06 at 03:01 AM

[BWIDB Charlie]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 4:40am

Just wanted to offer one quick bit of thought:

Remember, *if* this whole situation is how you believe, than the material the director is using does not use orchestrations or any other resources MTI uses. You would only have the P/C scores and a script to work off of. To me, this isn't presenting a full production. The cast, audience and everyone involved would be getting somewhat less than what they would if they were producing the show according to the book.

Just a thought. I would say contact MTI, let them investigate. They'll contact the director and go from there. I'm sure at least one side will come to a resolution that helps.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 5:37am

Sorry, magicpiane, but that doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter whether you do a musical with a Casio keyboard or a 50-piece orchestra, you still have to pay the applicable royalties on any piece that's not in the public domain.

Even if you didn't get the materials from the licensing organization, even if you bought a published script and score or took them out of the library and copied them, you'd still be legally (and morally) required to pay royalties. Ask Charles Dickens or Mark Twain what he thinks. (Well, I guess you can't.)

Believe me, there are plenty of small-scale productions out there that pay royalties. It's not a matter of paying the licensing organization for the materials; it's a matter of money that ultimately goes to the authors or their heirs. Of course, the licensing organization gets a good chunk of it. But usually it's because of the licensing organization that the materials that are needed for any group to do the show are available.


Updated On: 10/19/06 at 05:37 AM

[erinrebecca]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 6:43am

munk, my comment about evidence was in reply to DRSislove saying "Make sure you have some proof, and then go for it." :)

I agree that the OP should report this. Too many teachers get away with doing this and it's wrong. It can easily be done anonymously, which is why I posted Brian's email address.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 10:39am

Report her to your school's administration. This, first of all, takes the matter out of your hands and puts the responsibility on people whose job it is to deal with stuff like this. School leadership is paranoid about lawsuits these days...they will most likely force the teacher to pay for the rights and stop making major changes. But they're also more in tune with the students and parents in their community than MTI would be, so they are more likely to deal with this in a way such that the show will still happen (legally). It really is the job of a school administrator to make sure that this is taken care of and the illegality is stopped at their school.

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 10:54am

This is a tricky situation...however, I do know from working with MTI on a student version of "Into the Woods" they are ALWAYS willing to work with you. Typically they do not have a problem with cuts, we cut out "Our Little World," because the director didn't really like it, and it wasn't overly pivotal to the plot. Our Witch became a male when our original Witch dropped. However, we DID still pay royalties, we DID have everything listed as we needed it to be. I would say report them, and then see what happens.

[Enjolras77]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 11:05am

New question -- are you sure the show is one licensed by MTI? In my past dealings with MTI, whenever I requested perusal materials I never got a full piano score. All I received was a libretto and a sampling from the score that didn't even include one song in its entirity -- just snippets. At the back of the libretto it did contain the vocal line for each song, but no accompaniment or chord markings. It would be pretty hard to stage a full show from what MTI sends for perusal materials. The only way I could see it happening would be if they copied the script and then used music copied from a vocal selections book -- which wouldn't have all of the music anyway.

Tams-Whitmark on the other hand DOES send out a full piano/conductor score along with a libretto for perusal. One summer I requested copies of both Titanic and The Scarlet Pimpernel to look at as possible future school productions -- and I had a tough time restraining myself from photocopying songs that weren't in each shows published vocal selections (like "Madame Guillotine" and "Prayer" from SP).

Make sure you are contacting the correct licensing organization because the show's rights could be held by a number of places such as Tams-Whitmark, Dramatists Play Service, Music Theatre International, The Rodgers and Hammerstein Organization, Dramatic Publising Company and Samuel French -- just to name the main ones.

EDIT: I have included a link to a site that lists each show alphabetically along with its licensing organization.



http://www.musicals101.com/alphinde.htm

Updated On: 10/19/06 at 11:05 AM

[erikaamato]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 11:32am

Very useful link, Ejolras!

And just to repeat myself yet again, no matter who the licensing entity, is, please report this.

[Thesbijean]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:40pm

Wouldn't MTI figure out something when a teacher or school gets a perusal script EVERY year and decides not to do a show?

Also, I mean, I know it can be done, but a perusal script doesn't include ANY of the orchestrations or anything, so, I would assume that the teacher has to do them on their own?

[Jon]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:45pm

Many high school productions don't use an orchestra.

Many professional productions don't use an orchestra.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:48pm

Let it go. Be happy we have art.

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:12pm

The MTI perusal scripts don't contain a score of any kind. Only the script with the vocal lines in the back. You couldn't even play the show on the piano based on what they provide, unless you are just an amazing improv pianist.

My guess is that this music teacher picks shows with published scripts and scores. I doubt she has had any contact with MTI: she's just doing a show they happen to represent.

[immortalbroadwayLA]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:25pm

Munk: It's called manageing relationships...

Fiyero: If you can care less about your relationship with this woman then aby all means go to the authorities and turn her in. If you do care about your relationship, you may want to give her an opportunity to hear your concerns and work it out like adults first (she may surprise you) before escalating the matter.

I work in corporate America and it incenses me when I constantly see people going over there colleagues heads to address an issue rather than going straight to the source to work something out, which more often than not gets worked out and keeps the ensuing drama at a minimum. But hey, this is a board about drama, so by all means jump right to opening a can of worms that might have been avoided by a simple preliminary conversation.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:31pm

mejusthavingfun, you are an idiot.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:53pm

immortalbroadwayLA, this isn't a petty issue like someone that didn't chip in for the department's birthday present for the boss. fiyero is not her "colleague", he was a student. What the teacher is doing is illegal. She knows she's doing something illegal. She's been doing it for years regardless. She doesn't deserve to be warned ahead of time so she can make all the evidence go away before MTI comes knocking. She deserves to get caught and face the consequences of her actions.

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 2:01pm

"I work in corporate America and it incenses me when I constantly see people going over there colleagues heads to address an issue rather than going straight to the source to work something out, which more often than not gets worked out and keeps the ensuing drama at a minimum. But hey, this is a board about drama, so by all means jump right to opening a can of worms that might have been avoided by a simple preliminary conversation."

In corporate America, if you have a problem with a co-worker, you are told to take it HR and let them handle it. In this case MTI is HR. It's their property, and they are the ones who need to make the decision whether what this teacher is doing is acceptible or not. He would accomplish nothing by going straight to her except to create drama and adversity.