FOLLIES questions- Page 2

[Unknown User]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 6:37pm

its interesting that PHYLLIS is the one who asks COULD I LEAVE YOU?, yet its SALLY who is ready to ditch her husband & life at the drop of a hat; in fact, that might actually *BE* the reason she's there.

she doesnt make the bed, she eats babyruths for breakfast,
& she flies off crosscountry with the dishes in the sink.....
honey, its not *LIKE* you'e losing you're mind.
its done lost.

[Kringas]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 7:19pm

Not only that, but Sally's got a whole host of other problems. In the original script, she says at the end, "I should have died that first time. I should have been dead all these years," implying that she's not only tried to commit suicide, that she's tried it more than on occasion. My guess would be the first time was around the time that Ben married Phyllis. It's still hard to figure out exactly how the four of them parted ways, though, especially since Phyllis and Sally were so close.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 9:00pm

is the character of SALLY a reference to the show SALLY?

[ahmelie]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 9:06pm

I just want to say thank you for this thread, it is so interesting.

Follies is one of the few shows that we have that you can pick apart, dissect, and discuss in this manner. It is thoroughly fascinating.

[lildogs]

Posted: 3/1/07 at 3:21pm

I was thinking about what we were talking about Kringas, and THIS occurred to me:

I think alot of my interp of Phyllis and Sally, et al is based on how I would play them, perhaps not just based on the cript and score--yes, that's just MY spin, not supported by text, so I think that accounts for alot of my views on this show.

I agree that Phyllis is the innocent, which is also why I think her folly is the least devastating.

But I relate ALOT to Sally, and that clouds my analysis too...lucky me.

And ahmelie is right--it's not every show you can deconstruct like this.

[morosco]

Posted: 3/1/07 at 6:23pm

Here's some interesting insight regarding Jonathan Tunick's orchestrations for "In Buddy's Eyes" from Craig Zadan's book Sondheim and Company:

"Jonathan is also very aware of subtext," Sondheim points out. "In FOLLIES there was a song called 'In Buddy's Eyes' which was Dorothy Collins's lie to the John McMartin character, in which she says that everything is just wonderful and she's having a terrific time at home, she's so happily married. Nothing in the lyric, not a word tells you that maybe it isn't true. Nothing in the music tells you, although there is something in the orchestration. The actress has to tell you, and if you had watched Dorothy Collins deliver that song with intense anger because she feels she has been had, because she had been jilted thirty years before, the whole song takes on a very peculiar quality. It isn't quite what it seems to be. Jonathan has orchestrated it so that every phrase in the song which refers to her husband is dry, all woodwinds. Whenever she refers to herself it's all strings again."

"At the climax of that song," Tunick says, "I added a very penetrating cold sound, which is a favorite of mine. It's a combination of trumpets and sometimes bells which give you that kind of icy buzzing sound. I used that a lot in COMPANY, which was a show that called for a lot of penetrating, nasty stinging sounds."

[Unknown User]

Posted: 3/1/07 at 6:35pm

i think that the way SALLY bursts in, & being named SALLY, makes the audience instantly identify wth her...& she's so happy to be there, that makes the audience "side" with her & in contrast, PHYLLIS is being introduced as cold & arch.

yet we find out bit by bit that SALLY, who we so recently idenified with, is really not that nice or mentally healthy as we thought.

we learn from from BEN that upon doing it in the rumbleseat, PHYLLIS cried & worried about how her mother would feel if she knew.

maybe that is the emotional cue that gets the audience to shift loyalties from SALLY to PHYLLIS.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 3/1/07 at 7:04pm

Does everyone feel that way about Phyllis? I mean, does everyone feel she is truly sympathetic? I've heard Phyllis been referred to as the true ice queen, which she is but only to a point.
I must be mad to say this, but I disagree with Sondheim about his own song. He says that nothing in the lyrics suggest that she might be lying. Perhaps I'm being misled by the fact that I always heard the song before I ever read the lyrics and actually it was that very same excerpt from SONDHEIM AND CO. that made me go listen to the song, so I already had the idea of the context in which it was being performed. Having said that, I think lyrics like "every morning-don't faint-I tend the flowers," the reference to "umpteen hours," and the "yes, I miss a lot living like a shut-in" section very much suggest that Sally isn't truly happy.
As I said, it is insane of me to disagree with what the writer of the song himself is saying, but still.

[ahmelie]

Posted: 3/1/07 at 10:01pm

I've always looked upon In Buddy's Eyes as Sally lying to Ben, I think she has an understanding that she isn't happy and, to an extent, just trying to make Ben jealous. I also think that in many ways she is seducing him, that she's reverting to the tricks that women are told to use. She's pretending she's uninterested in Ben to get his attention.

I think Sally's a bitch, and I've only come to that conclusion after listening to the recording and reading the script over and over. But how the audiences receives Sally is so dependent on the actor's interpretation, and it truly is one of those roles that is open to such interpretation. For the longest time, I thought Phyllis was the bitch and Sally was the nice, if desperate, one. Now I see that while Sally is still desperate, Phyllis is probably the only one "in the right"

God, I love this show.

[Kringas]

Posted: 3/1/07 at 10:14pm

Well, that's the thing. Phyllis is the most sympathetic, but she's not necessarily the most likable.

PS This may be my favorite main board thread ever.

Updated On: 3/1/07 at 10:14 PM

[courtnyj]

Posted: 3/9/07 at 3:04pm

The ENCORES! Follies has started something with me...Follies is becoming one of my favorites. Scary....I didn't really know much about the show before seeing the ENCORES! production and now I've gone out and bought three recordings of it. I just got the '85 concert version on vinyl (thanks ebay!) in the mail today. It sounds just gorgeous! It's like I'm sitting in Avery Fisher Hall. So cool!

Anyway, the conversation in this thread is quite interesting. I don't think Sally's a bitch, she's just emotionally unstable. She goes to the party under the delusion that she will find the solution to her depression in Ben. The jury is still out for me on Ben. He gets a little more sympathetic at the end when he breaks down and realizes he needs Phyllis, but I think it's a little to little to late y'know? Actually reminds me a lot of my father who I haven't spoken to in four years. Wow...that's messed up but so true. I think it's fascinating how these characters can be interpreted so many ways. So relatable and universal if you look just past the surface.
Updated On: 3/9/07 at 03:04 PM

[Kringas]

Posted: 3/9/07 at 3:30pm

All four of the main characters (and probably all characters in the show, to some degree) are pretty complex, and lead themselves to various interpretations.

The problem with playing Ben is that you really have to convey that he's someone who could command the attention of these women like he does, what with Sally's lifelong obsession with him and Phyllis staying with him for thirty years. If the audience doesn't buy the appeal of Ben, the stories of Phyllis and Sally fall apart.

Updated On: 3/9/07 at 03:30 PM

[keen on kean]

Posted: 3/9/07 at 3:40pm

Slightly OT, but the Sondheim & Company book by Craig Zadan is fascinating! I just started it, and now I want to see everything produced, especially Merrily We Roll Along and Follies. The section quoted by morosco above made me rethink the song.

[sondheimboy2]

Posted: 3/9/07 at 10:52pm

I've always thought that the lines "Living like a shut-in" were where the truth slips out.

Tell me, anyone who saw the concert, did they use the original book? With the line about her attempted suicide?

I always thought that one of the problems with subsequent productions of "Follies" is how the book keeps getting watered down. The impression I get is that they keep trying to make it have a happy ending for both couples.

Yes, Ben and Phyllis, you get the feeling, may still make it work. But Buddy and Sally, not really.

After she has her line, "I should have died. I should have died that first time." Buddy tries to pull her out of it, as, you get the feeling, he has had to do so many times in the past. He says something about tomorrow. She repeats "tomorrow" and then says "Oh, dear God, it is tomorrow."

I have a tape of the original cast and when Dorothy Collins says that line there is such disappointment and despair in her voice, you can feel it like a chill.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 3/9/07 at 11:40pm

Ray is right. When Sally says ""Every morning--don't faint--I tend the flowers," she's lying: She hasn't watered those flowers in years and they're all DEAD!

And she never even cracked open that paint-set-and-easel Buddy got her for an anniversary present. Or if she did, she never finished her first painting.

That's why her sons moved to San Francisco and did hallucinogens and turned gay--because she never watered the goddamned flowers or painted for ONE let alone UMPTEEN hours!

I'd like to see her sons at an Al-Anon meeting. "Hi name is Buddy Junior and my mother is an alcoholic."

[Kringas]

Posted: 3/10/07 at 1:12am

Tell me, anyone who saw the concert, did they use the original book? With the line about her attempted suicide?

The concert book was a combination of the original and the revised version. It was truncated as well. I find it to be a weird mash up of the two at times, but that's only because I have the misfortune of having the script committed to memory.

The lines about her suicide attempt were not in it. All recent revivals dropped those lines, I believe.

[sondheimboy2]

Posted: 3/10/07 at 9:07pm

I don't see as how having the script to "Follies" committed to memory is a misfortune, Kringas....

[C is for Company]

Posted: 3/10/07 at 9:51pm

Because once you have mastered the splendor of the original book, you can only get pissed off when subsequent revivals fail to uphold those kinds of lines.

[sondheimboy2]

Posted: 3/10/07 at 10:17pm

I once sat down with both copies of the published script and compared them.

I understand your point exactly C is for Company.

[Kringas]

Posted: 3/14/07 at 1:43pm

I once sat down with both copies of the published script and compared them.

I've done that, too. I'd still love to see the 1987 London script, tragic as it must be. I just read somewhere today that Ben doesn't break down in that production.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 3/14/07 at 1:51pm

At the post-show talk Sondheim gave during the concert series, he mentioned that someone (can't remember if it was Goldman, Prince, or general critics) told him that it didn't make sense that only Ben had a break-down instead of all the characters. "Live, Laugh, and Love" was replaced with "Make the Most Out of the Music" and if I remember correctly, Sondheim said that in London all the characters had an actual break-down a la Ben.

[courtnyj]

Posted: 3/14/07 at 5:24pm

Hmmm...I think I would prefer the version where ony Ben breaks down. It's much more powerful that way.
Of course, I didn't see the '87 production, so my opinion doesn't really count. Updated On: 3/14/07 at 05:24 PM

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 3/14/07 at 5:30pm

Oh, I think "Live,Laugh,Love" is a fascinating number, I really dislike "Make the Most Out of Your Music."

[Eastwickian]

Posted: 3/15/07 at 6:18am

I thought there was a kind of mass breakdown towards the end of the the London version, though I may be wrong... I actually like 'Make the most of your music' - it was a smug razzmatazz number which fitted nicely with Ben's character. I still prefer Live Laugh Love though

[Kringas]

Posted: 3/15/07 at 9:20am

Here's a curio about the original production. Marti Rolph originated the role of Young Sally and Victoria Mallory originated the role of Young Heidi. IBDB (and SondheimGuide.com) also list Marti Rolph as replacing Victoria Mallory, but there's no additional actress listed for Young Sally. Does anyone know if Rolph actually did play both Young Sally and Young Heidi?