FOLLIES questions- Page 4

[Kringas]

Posted: 3/19/07 at 11:47pm

I wonder if there's a general consensus one way or the other about this. I suspect that if there is, it's that it happens only in their minds. That's just my guess, though.

I will say, though, that I began to think that it was something that really happened when I realized that the four are actually on stage during a good portion of "Loveland" and not immediately whisked offstage, if that makes any sense.

[C is for Company]

Posted: 3/20/07 at 12:08am

You mean to say like Loveland really found the 4 of them and they were actually present in that place, in that time? I just find it hard to be a realistic show that I don't want to see it as really happening because I know it can't happen. Then again, who gathers around to entertain a crowd and winds up taking center stage to announce that they are still here? I guess the more I think of it, the show is just as out there as any other musical and to accept Loveland as really happening.

I think it will remain up to the viewer on how to take it. Certainly odd, just as strange as Dorothy landing in Oz, except at the end we find out it was a dream right? Here we have no resolution of the truth or the reality of the events. Oh well, who can deny that whether it was meant to be understood or not, the point comes across in an oh so trippy wonderland.

[sondheimboy2]

Posted: 3/20/07 at 12:36am

I've always imagined it to be a mass halucination of some sort.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 3/20/07 at 1:53am

I've always thought the Loveland sequence was just a way in which the characters themselves projected their frustration, so I guess in a way I do agree that it all happens in their minds but I'm not sure I see it as a "mass hallucination" because except for the Folly of Youth, the four characters do not share a follies together (even when Buddy talks about Margie and Sally, we get some sort of fantasized images of both in the chorus girls).
I think in Loveland we get a projection of how time has ultimately made these characters very lonely. They start singing together in group in their youth, and then each of them has a solo that is very self-reflective and yet they're not able to voice this out to one another, only to the faceless audience (the audience is acknowledged throughout the follies, Buddy starts with "hello, folks" and Phyllis sings "I could tell you someone who could finally feel just fine).
It's hard for me to picture the Loveland as being real but the theatre is indeed haunted by ghosts, so why can't the ghosts take over and place the four characters into a plane where they can come to terms with what they've become and who they are?

[Kringas]

Posted: 3/20/07 at 9:18am

You mean to say like Loveland really found the 4 of them and they were actually present in that place, in that time?

Pretty much, yes. Follies is considered science fiction, right?

Seriously, though, I do believe that it happens. Ultimately, I don't believe it's any more fantastical than the ghosts that populate the theatre. In fact, I think the presence of the ghosts is one of the reasons why I do think it's possible that Loveland actually happens in some sort of "real" sense.

I know I keep going back to the original ending, but again, I think when the four return from Loveland and they are the only people there, it gives some credence to the fact that something supernatural (for lack of a better word) has happened. Actually, with just the four remaining you can wonder not only if Loveland happened at all, but if the entire evening happened at all.

[C is for Company]

Posted: 3/21/07 at 9:20pm

I like the last paragraphs Kringas and Ray have both written, particularly the last sentences. Brings a very mysterious touch to the party and how I think about the ghosts.

I think what makes the Loveland sequence so particularly unique in the show for me is that when the Ghosts are there to be seen, they occupy the same space and take part in the events, like dancing in Who's That Woman. Once the main 4 set themselves apart from the rest of the party though is when things become questionable. I never really thought of the theater being haunted, just that the audience is seeing the memories of the past taking shape alongside their older counterparts in present state. Allows us to touch base with the past. True I refer to them as Ghosts, but as much as I refer to them as Memories. I think that although we see them taking a physical presence, they really aren't there except for theatrical purposes for the audience. I don't find them meant to be anything more or as ghosts in the world of Follies

Once Loveland comes along, it really isn't about the past anymore but about the current state of these peoples affairs. I find Losing My Mind to be the simplest spotlight because it only involves Sally revealing a piece of her psyche to the audience, whether literally acted out or not. I think Phyllis and Ben have the hardest to explain because they feature a full ensemble. Are they there or not? Imagined or spectral? Physical halucinations or other? I really can't say except that if I had to explain how I see them, I take it as a mental representation presented in a special way to the audience to fill them in on a grand folly.

After all, what better way to connect the old time follies than to express their optical moments through an experience of a real life folly.

[Kringas]

Posted: 3/21/07 at 9:38pm

I don't find them meant to be anything more or as ghosts in the world of Follies

That's fascinating. It makes perfect sense, but it never occurred to me to look at it that way.

The Young Four do seem to actually occupy the space, though, because they see the Older Four right now away, at least according to the stage directions, so I'd argue that they are there for more than just a device for the audience.

I hate to keep using the words "haunted" or "supernatural" because I don't like the connotations they bring, but I guess I always saw the show as some sort of effed up advant garde tragedy masquerading as an old fashioned musical.

Maybe it's that as an adult I grasp the concept of a concept musical (heh) and that I don't really think I did when I was first listening the show as a kid. I took it literally seventeen years ago and I still take it literally now, even though I recognize that it may be a vastly different show for people who aren't me.

Does that rambling mess I just wrote make any sense?

I think Follies makes me a little crazy

Updated On: 3/21/07 at 09:38 PM

[C is for Company]

Posted: 3/21/07 at 9:54pm

Well I suppose I failed to address the Young 4. See, when Heidi performs her bit, I really don't see her as physically appearing in their world because of course, even in Who's That Woman, they barely get the acknowledgement or special treatment of the Young 4.

I guess I never really gave actual thought to it, but to me they are entirely different entities. They invoke and participate in the action, sometimes reflecting or re-enacting the past to help the audience. Although I take them as tools for the audience, I also consider them a realistic portion of the production, more than the other ghosts of the older figures. Since the big 4 are the main focus, I consider their younger counterparts to be heavily engaged in the story and manifest themselves somehow in the real life action. That I can't explain :-p haha, some things confuse me more than others! I can never get a fully explainable theory going on so I just don't concentrate on it and allow my mind to register it however!

[Kringas]

Posted: 3/22/07 at 9:27am

I can never get a fully explainable theory going on so I just don't concentrate on it and allow my mind to register it however!

The more we talk about this, the easier it is for me to understand why the show is so impenetrable for a lot of the general public.

[C is for Company]

Posted: 3/22/07 at 12:45pm

However, I luckily have more patience than to just deem it as crap because I can't say with confidence that I understand the whole 100% of it. I don't really know if it can be explained thoroughly enough that would satisfy every aspect with consistency and a plausible analysis. If anyone else is still reading and would care to share their personal viewpoint on the matter...

Updated On: 3/22/07 at 12:45 PM

[C is for Company]

Posted: 4/4/07 at 1:59pm

Happy 36th anniversary FOLLIES! We love you and all the mysterious joy you've touched us with

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 4/4/07 at 2:44pm

"One more kiss to melt the heart,
One more glimpse of the past.
One more souvenir of bliss,
Knowing well that this
One must be the last."

Happy birthday, FOLLIES!

[ahmelie]

Posted: 4/4/07 at 5:11pm

Happy Birthday, Follies!

You're fantastic!

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 11/1/07 at 2:03pm

I miss C is for Company

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/1/07 at 2:26pm

I miss him, too.

[LadyRosecoe]

Posted: 11/1/07 at 3:59pm

I miss him thrice. I have a feeling that he is listening to the Follies soundboard at this very moment, assured that Ben and all of you know the way he feels.

But let us please return to the splendor of Follies and my daddy Roscoe's legacy. Anybody have any questions they've thought of lately? If not, it's still good to revisit some of these great posts and see some familiar faces

[Unknown User]

Posted: 11/1/07 at 6:59pm

i miss FOLLIES!

"no, i dont have cooks or cars or diamonds...."

isnt Vicki doing her signing @ B&N soon?

[InfiniteTheaterFrenzy]

Posted: 11/15/07 at 4:05pm

This is one of the best threads I have ever read on BWW, so I am bumping it.

More Follies love/ thoughts?

[LadyRosecoe]

Posted: 11/15/07 at 4:48pm

We can start by wishing Phyllis herself a wonderful CotD congrats over on the off-topics. She surely has some Follies fun going on today.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 11/19/07 at 8:59am

Cleo Laine - LOSING MY MIND

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 5/14/08 at 9:14am

When - after their first meeting at the reuinion - Sally says, "Phyll, can you tell me something?" and Phyllis says, "If I can," what does Sally want her to tell her?

[LadyRosecoe]

Posted: 5/14/08 at 10:04am

It happens fairly early in a realistic sense, about less than 5 minutes after they meet up so it must be something that would get that kind of priority in a conversation. Perhaps something she would know about Ben passed under a guise or curious innocence? The creators probably wanted a reason to get them offstage and it wasn't something important or something that there really is an answer to, but such an exchange, although forgotten by the audience as the next point of interest comes onstage, is definitely a subject that would be dwelled upon years later by rabid fans!

[Unknown User]

Posted: 6/4/08 at 11:49am

i cant stop thinkin about one of the scenes from FOLLIES...

when Sally greets Mr Weissman & he totally doesnt know who she is...she says, "its me, Mr Weissman...Sally from The Mirror Number!" & he says, "AH! Little Sally! well well well!"

& then just ***totally disregards*** her!

[LadyRosecoe]

Posted: 6/5/08 at 12:41am

I like to think that she doesn't even have a clue about how he pulls himself away from her. Perhaps his not remembering her or discarding her rather quickly has something to do with a past incident when she was young. Maybe she was crazy then!

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 6/19/08 at 9:07pm

So Buddy introduced Ben to Phyllis through Sally. Do we presume that Ben was carrying on with Sally even before he got with Phyllis? Was he just screwing Sally behind Buddy's back because it was easy?

I always imagine that when Young Sally is crying, "I want a reason!" that that's the last time he saw her.