FOLLIES questions

[Unknown User]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 11:31am

i still wanna talk about FOLLIES, & this is what i keep thinking about.

IN BUDDY'S EYES: is SALLY lying to BEN or herself...or both?

& if she's lying to herself, is she actually telling the truth without knowing it?
because BUDDY *does* seem devoted to her, regardless of MARGIE.

[philcrosby]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 11:35am

She is telling the truth -- that IS what Sally sees in Buddy's eyes. Sadly, it's not what Buddy sees in hers.

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 11:35am

Both. She's lying to Ben about how happy her marriage is and she's lying to herself that Buddy actually makes her happy. What she *wants* to sing is "In Ben's eyes", but she doesnt dare because that would be closer to the truth than she can handle at the point in the story.

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 11:40am

Sally lives in the fantasy of her head. She is probably bipolar or manic depressive. But clearly she goes to the reunion to "find" Ben.

I think the song is brilliant because it starts as something of chit chat and segues into lies about how great her life is and then turns to her relationship with Buddy, which like all marriages is complicated. Buddy does stay with her, so some part of him must still see her as the young 19 year old girl. And she sees that even as she sings it - even as she would leave her husband at the trop of a hat to be with the man standing next to her...

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 3:32pm

I believe she's lying to herself and to Ben both, but the song also reveals her bitterness and regrets, IMO.
The lines "every morning--don't faint--I tend the flowers, can you believe it every weekend I paint for umpteen hours?" are so revealing. I feel Sally can't believe it herself that this is what her life has become about, the fact she says "umpteen hours" implies that this life seems sort of interminable and monotonous.
I think the lines "and yes, I miss a lot living like a shut-in; no, I haven't got cooks and cars and diamons; yes, my clothes are not Paris fashion but..." imply that she's quite envious of Phyllis and that she does miss it a lot regardless of whatever excuse she wants to make for herself. Those lines could be played with a sense of bitterness.
There's a lot of emotions going on in this song: regret, denial, jealousy, seduction (I feel she's trying to get a reaction from Ben, manipulating him in a way), etc. It's a brilliant song, Victoria Clark nailed it at the Encores! concert.

[ljay889]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 3:44pm

She's obviously lying. And I think the most heartbreaking part is that deep down she knows shes lying. How could she not?

She definitely suffers from some depression or bi polar, and I think that's what makes her character even more brilliant. I'm going to be a Psyc major, so I hope to study her character when I know more about the human science. Updated On: 2/27/07 at 03:44 PM

[Kringas]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:01pm

"I'm so lucky, I feel like crying" always stood out to me because while I'm sure she does feel like crying, I doubt it's because of how lucky she feels.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:05pm

Exactly, Kringas! It's so genius.

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:09pm

rayand pretty much said what I was going to say.

I think people at reunions in general feel a need to build up their present lives to their old friends.

I agree that she envies the life Ben and Phyllis have and yet she tries to undercut them by implying that she has treasures beyond the material. I also think she's trying to somehow entice Ben "still the princess, still the prize" into some delusional idea of a relationship/affair. I think she's desperate to cheat on Buddy--she knows he cheats on her.

And all the while, as she's singing, she realizes that she DOES get something out of being with Buddy. That's why Sondheim is a genius.

[Kringas]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:16pm

If n69n doesn't mind, I'd like to expand this thread to ask another question. There won't be any right answer, but I'm curious to know what others think.

I was always curious about Ben and Sally's affair, more specifically, when do we suppose it began and when (and how) do we suppose it ended? Were Ben and Sally having an affair before he was introduced to Phyllis? Ben had proposed to Phyllis while it was going on, but the script would lead us to believe they married after it was over and that the two couples were already out of touch by then, but I wonder what the final straw really was the divided them.

[Kringas]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:17pm

I think she's desperate to cheat on Buddy--she knows he cheats on her.

Only with Ben, though. Buddy, I believe, could have cheated on Sally with anyone, but Sally's heart only belonged to Ben.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:22pm

"I think people at reunions in general feel a need to build up their present lives to their old friends."


Like Jennifer Holliday at the preOscar show.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:31pm

*PLEASE* jack the thread coz i can read & think about FOLLIES all day!!!

"paint for umpteen hours" stands out for me because i think its so interesting that she doesnt mention WHAT she paints...just that she apparently does a lot of it.

[Kringas]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:34pm

*PLEASE* jack the thread coz i can read & think about FOLLIES all day

I do, too. It's like a sickness.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:36pm

y'all are f'd up...truly.

[Kringas]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:38pm

I'd say we were chuckleheads.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:49pm

do you think its meant to be a euphemism that TOM and TIM are "living in san francisco"?

[Kringas]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 4:52pm

I don't think so. I figured that the Plummers were probably living further east (or south) than Phoenix at the time their kids moved, and they were trying to get as far away from their mother as they possibly could.

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 5:16pm

"Only with Ben, though. Buddy, I believe, could have cheated on Sally with anyone, but Sally's heart only belonged to Ben. "

Well, yeah, of course just with Ben and yes, I think there are alot of "Margie"s....

I always thought that Ben and Sally were screwing around before Ben and Phyllis were dating--I get the idea that Phyllis was Miss Popular and an object to be pursued, while Sally was more desperate, searching for love rather than having it search her. It's almost like a Helena/Hermia dynamic. Phyllis to Ben was a trophy to win and neglect--Sally is his biggest fan, so of course he wants her attention--he doesn't get that much anymore.

I think once Ben had Phyllis, he lost interest in Sally, giving Buddy the opportunity to move in on her, only to find out he didn't really want her either.

[Kringas]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 5:19pm

Are you speaking in sexual terms when you say "had Phyllis" or in broader terms?

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 5:28pm

Well, I meant "as a couple" not just sex.

I see them as the Weissman power couple--Brad and Angelina of the vaudeville set. I think they're people who "should" be together rather than wanting to be together.

[Kringas]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 5:43pm

Well, then I'd have to disagree with you. Ben pretty much had Phyllis from the get go. She was enamored of him. She wasn't an object to be perused, expect perhaps sexually, since several times the script delves into the fact the Ben had to push and push her to have sex with him before they married. She was (in Buddy's words) a sweet and lonely kid.

Ben claimed to love Phyllis back in the day, whether or not that's true is unclear. But she clearly loved him then (and still loves him thirty years later).

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 5:54pm

I guess so--I may be putting my own spin on them, but I'm also going with what Ben says during his break down..."I only wanted her until I had her..."

I think Phyllis does love Ben, she's not IN love with him (I don't think...

The thing about Phyllis is, we don't really know that much about her inner life. Her folly is about that very thing, and sometimes when the wrappings fall, there's nothing underneath at all.

I also try to put the show into a context I know: a summer stock or touring company. I guess I might put a little of my own interp on the characters since I feel like they are similar to people I know. So there's that too.

[Kringas]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 6:10pm

I think Phyllis does love Ben, she's not IN love with him (I don't think...

The thing about Phyllis is, we don't really know that much about her inner life. Her folly is about that very thing, and sometimes when the wrappings fall, there's nothing underneath at all.

Oh, see I do think she's in love with him. As fiercely as Sally is.

Phyllis's folly to me was always that she couldn't reconcile who she was (the sweet, warm and open young girl) with the woman she is (the older, cold and jaded bitch she's become). Phyllis is really the saddest and most pitiable character in the show, in my opinion. And - and I think this is very important - at the end of the day, Phyllis is really the only innocent here. Ben screwed around on her, Sally was her best friend and screwed around with her man, and Buddy knew about it. Phyllis suspects it, but doesn't have her suspicions confirmed until 30 years later. I've always found Phyllis to more heartbreaking than Sally beause of that, because what she became is a direct result of her efforts to be what she thought Ben wanted in a wife.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 2/27/07 at 6:23pm

In one of the many Follies discussions that went on during the time of the concert, I remember PalJoey said something to the effect that Victoria Clark played Sally's manipulative, manic depressive, bitchy side. I very much agree with this description of Sally, she slept with her best friend's husband, she drove away her children, she mistreats her husband who actually really loves her, she also specifically plans how she is gonna cheat on Buddy and betray Phyllis once again even though she doesn't know if Ben and Phyllis are happily married (one can judge from the script that the press paints them as the perfect successful couple). Sally spends "sleepless nights" thinking about Ben while she sleeps next to her husband, one can even judge that if Buddy and Sally have sex, Sally thinks of Ben when they do. That's why I said that "In Buddy's Eyes" is one of Sally's weapons of seduction, I believe she's trying to see how Ben reacts.
When I saw the show and read the script I figured that Sally and Ben only started fooling around once the two couples started double-dating. I figured that Sally was very envious of Phyllis and seduced Ben, Ben wasn't getting it from Phyllis and accepted Sally. To me, Sally clearly misunderstood things and Ben probably played her to keep getting sex. He never loved her, he just pretended to love her (perhaps he himself thought he did). I think that the last straw was that moment when Sally asks "am I too cheap for you? Is that it?" That point where SHE gave him an ultimatum and he got too tired of her.
I agree with Kingras, Phyllis is indeed the most sympathetic character. I think she is indeed in love with Ben. That's why I loved Donna Murphy's "Could I Leave You?" When she sang, "could I leave you? Yes" she sounded so heart-broken; of course she could leave him but she was not going to give up on what they had because she truly loved him.