Into the Woods

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 11:10am

Ok, I remeber reading a while back in a review for the revival, that a theory went around that "Into the Woods" was meant to be a parable or parallel to AIDS? And I really don't see a connection, if there is one...which makes me ask, is there??

[Kitzarina]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 11:24am

The closest example I can think of would be the idea of community that is such an essential theme in "Into the Woods." The idea that 'no one is alone' and your actions will irrevocably have an effect on those around you could be seen as a parallel to the AIDS crisis. However, I think that anyone who tries to make that argument as a legitimate intention is really grasping at straws.

Posted: 10/27/06 at 11:32am

interesting...

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 11:34am

Husk. Many people used to say the Giant was aids. I have heard so many things about "Into the Woods". The most interesting being the whole "I Know Things Now" being about a child who has been molested. When you listen to it thinking that it makes perfect sense. Also "Giants in the Sky" being about drug abuse.

[Jon]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 11:44am

Some thought the giant represented nuclear war. Of course, this was before the fall of the Soviet Union.

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 12:56pm

I can see the Giant as AIDS thing...and I did know about the sexual awakening/molestation with "I Know Things Now."

[StageManager2]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 1:29pm

Let's dissect this song, shall we?

Mother said straight ahead
Not to delay or be misled

(Mother telling child not to talk to strangers.)

I should have heeded her advice
But he seemed so nice
And he showed me things
Many beautiful things
That I hadn't thought to explore
They were off my path
So I never had dared
I had been so careful
I never had cared
And he made me feel excited
Well, excited and scared

(Predator entices child with candy/toys. Child accepts despite his/her mother's warning against strangers.)

When he said come in
With that sickening grin
How could I know what was in store?
Once his TEETH were BARED
Though I really got scared
Well, excited AND scared

(Stranger exposes himself to child who becomes frightened by this. Nevertheless, s/he is intrigued.)

But he drew me close
And he SWALLOWED me down
Down a dark SLIMY path
Where lies secrets that I never want to know
And when everything familiar
Seemed to disappear forever...

(Predator rapes child and innocence is lost.)

May I point out that "wolf" also refers to a man who makes sexual/amorous advances to women and that in the original production of INTO THE WOODS, the Wolf had a prominent, furry penis dangling between his legs.

Updated On: 10/27/06 at 01:29 PM

[lildogs]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 2:07pm

I don't think the AIDS parallel is INTENTIONAL, but ITW can certainly be interpreted in so many ways....

In Act One, Jack repeatedly robs and kills the Giant. Nothing more is thought of him, until his wife seeks revenge. When this happens, the social structure falls apart: what little protection the royals provided is gone and the citizens are left to fend for themselves. (Katrina, anyone?) The Giantess kills without purpose or prejudice, much like AIDS. And all the things the characters wished for have become their downfalls, exemplified in "Your Fault."

Jack has become a pariah in the community, much like AIDS victims in the early days...remember this was written in the late 80s. The Witch wants him dead to stop the rest of the killing, but the others seek to protect the orphaned boy from certain death. They realize his transgression is no greater than their own, and embrace Jack no matter what he has done or unleashed upon the others.

So, that is a poorly wrought explanation, but maybe it might help you understand that interpretation a little better.

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 2:19pm

Lapine and Sondheim have both said there were no hidden messages in the songs. Is it all coincidence?? "Hello Little Girl" is disgusting!! Always grossed me out. From the first time I heard it I thought it was about an old perv (a wolf!).

[StageManager2]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 2:25pm

Ciaron: It's no more a coincidence than the "Dark Side of the Moon"/THE WIZARD OF OZ connection.

ETA: I concur about "Hello Little Girl." Look at some of the lyrics:

Mmmh...
Unhh...

Look at that FLESH
PINK and plump
Hello little girl
TENDER and FRESH (i.e. virginal)
Not one lump
Hello little girl
This one's especially LUSH
Delicious
Mmmh...

Elsewhere in the song, he sings:

Think of those crisp, AGING bones (i.e. not fully developed)
Then something fresh on the PALATE
Think of that scrumptious CARNALITY*
Twice in one day

*Carnal commonly refers to the passions of the body.

Oh, and this...

There's no possible way
To describe how you feel
When you're talking to your MEAL

... makes me think of Colin Farrell's "This is my breakfast, lunch and f*cking dinner" comment in his video.

Updated On: 10/27/06 at 02:25 PM

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 2:52pm

The show fascinates me in general...and I like the use of the Witch. We know that when Sondheim is revealing true character, and the faster and wittier, the more we get revealed, however, it seems that he breaks that pattern with the Witch. "Lament," "Stay with Me" and "Last Midnight" are not particularly fast paced songs, in fact he replaced "Boom! Crunch!" (Which was fast AND annoying) with "Last Midnight." We learn through these that the Witch truly does care for Rapunzel (but doesn't know how to keep her), and that the Witch is the only one totally aware of what's going on, she just can't stop it. Yet, she offers to, if they give her Jack, she'll take the blame for everything, which would solve the problem. She then comes back to deliver the "Moral of the Story' in "Children Will Listen." The Witch also barely participates in either rousing rendition of the title song...
Wow this really turned into stream of consiousness (Spelling?)

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 2:57pm

The Witch is the catalyst.

The most interesting character is the bakers wife! Now that you could go to town on!!

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 3:03pm

The Baker's Wife is an odd one for me...part of me likes her, part of me doesn't, and if the actress doesn't handle "Moments in the Woods" well, it is over for me.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 3:06pm

Heh, when I first glanced at your post, Ciaron, I thought it read "Now that you could go DOWN on!!"

I thought you were making a reference to the Baker's Wife being a grown woman (i.e. a consenting adult).

Updated On: 10/27/06 at 03:06 PM

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 3:07pm

The Bakers Wife has to be played by an excellent actress. Joanna Gleason pretty much stamped that role. "Moments In the Woods" is one of the hardest numbers to perform. It calls for so many different emotions.

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 3:13pm

"Moments in the Woods" is this shows "Losing My Mind" or "Being Alive" in terms of emotions, I saw one production that I really wanted to gouge my eyes out during, the actress had no idea the gravity of the role or what it required, and seemed to just be there, talking and singing.

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 3:21pm

See I don't think the most emotional song in Follies is "Losing My Mind" or I should say the hardest to perform. "Losing My Mind" is part of the loveland piece. I think the harder songs are "Could I Leave You" or in Sally's case "In Buddys Eyes". She has to sing a lie. Can't be easy.

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 3:47pm

I have to say, as an actor, MOMENTS IN THE WOODS has to be one of the easiest songs to perform. All ya have to do is ask the questions and answer them. It's perhaps one of the most perfectly crafted songs in any musical.

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 3:59pm

robbiej-
It may be easy to memorize, but to PERFORM and go through the range of emotions, and not be flat appearing, is MUCH more difficult. I would rather be handed "Stay With Me" than "Moments in the Woods"

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 4:02pm

Wow, I knew about the AIDS theory, but I didn't know about this molestation/drug abuse theory. I'll never be able to listen to those songs the same way again...

I loved to scream out the when you're talking to your meal part...

*feels sad*

Well, did a bit of reading on ITW, a lot of these are obvious, but...I didn't really realize them until I considered looking beyond ITW the way I saw it in high school. The way you guys discuss it, you all probably know the true themes and such, but since I didn't, I thought others might be interested (and it's fun to write about!)

First off, very early in his career, Sondheim wanted to musicalize Mary Poppins. Heh. Interesting.

Most of the show deals with maturing and discovering independence and interdependence.

There's a small cautionary part of the main theme..."never can tell what lies ahead, etc." But for the most part, it's simple and optimistic, fairy tale-y.

The fact that Red keeps stealing/eating the food shows how on her journey, she must learn the danger of indulgence. And however you interpret that experience, her innocence is lost. And all the characters have ambiguous lessons. "isn't it nice to know a lot? and a little bit not."

Jack compromises his moral code as he achieves his wish (stealing/slaying the giants). The Baker and his wife lie and cheat on their journey.

Sondheim originally intended for all the characters to have one theme, and while that didn't pan, they each do have a specific style--Cinderella's soprano, Jack and his mom use folk songs, and the wolf has a soft-shoe shuffle, and the witch raps.

The Baker and his wife are interesting because they more than any of the other characters live in both the world of fairy tale and reality. Their middle-classness and specific desires relate most to the audience. They purposely express themselves the way an urban couple would. This is why in many productions (depending on the actors) it is their journey you follow most.

Sondheim said this was his most difficult score to write since Forum because the show was so plot-heavy.

The woods serve as a metaphor for the characters' unconscious. There, they learn the consequences of pursuing their desires by compromising their morality.

And I know this had been touched on by other threads, but I never totally understood why No One is Alone is so misinterpreted. (I don't mean I can't understand how people couldn't get the true meaning, I meant I never understood the true meaning) I guess there is a bit of you have support, but it's more like...no man is an island, what you do effects other people (Kitz specifically mentioned this, so obviously many understood this song better than I previously had). The importance at the end is working together to form a community.

The differences in acts 1 and 2 also have to do with growth, maturity. Act 1 shows more of a younger, idealized perspective of happiness. As you get older, you realize happiness isn't that simple, and problems develop. They let go of their simplistic wishes by the end of the show.

There is a sense of unease in Ever After, as the characters realize they compromised their morality.

And I never realized the theme/importance of the repetition near the end of the theme..."to conquer, to have, to get, to kill"...intertwined with the other sings so they're not so obvious, but of course now they seem so to me. Of course the irony is great in the happy mood of the song/music.

Apparently, though it was never intended, in addition to the wife of the giant being interpretted as AIDS and a nuclear end to the world, it was also interpreted as a criticization of the focus on the individual of Reaganomics.

Moments in the Woods has a whole story within itself. The Baker's wife must choose between the fantasy world (the prince) and the reality (husband and child) that she has been ambiguously living. She tries to rationale getting both (have a child, a husband, a prince for whatever...) but ultimately makes the decision to grow out of idealization and make the practical choice.

Last Midnight is about how crazy the world gets when people are so selfish.

"Careful the wishes you make"--now makes much more sense to me.

Reading this over, I realize these observations are quite obvious, it's just...so many of us got into this show in like High School, some even doing the first act in elementary (which totally ruins the show as I now understand it), and just...never think about the true meaning. I didn't until now. It's obvious by most of the posts here you guys are aware of this and are reading this thinking, duh, but again, just something a lot of people get into but never get past associating it with past and analyzing (or maybe it's just me...possible).

Still my favorite Sondheim show.

I think the eating of the narrator is one of the funniest parts in any show. Maybe they don't like the way he's telling the story. Ha.

Updated On: 10/27/06 at 04:02 PM

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 4:06pm

Honestly...as an actor, you can't even get involved with the emotions, because the action of the song is too great. Anyone who dwells on the emotions in the piece is destined to fail. Focus on the action...which is answering questions and then finding the answers. Whatever emotion shows up, great. But the brilliance of the piece is that all it is is action. It's an actor's delight.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 4:08pm

Robbie, are you referring to the song Moments in the woods itself, or the show in general?

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 4:12pm

Moments in the Woods, itself. It's crystal clear and perfectly constructed. Now, make me sing Last Midnight and I'd drown myslef in a toilet.

[lildogs]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 4:16pm

Just like Lupe Velez.

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 4:18pm

robbiej-
I still disagree, but whatever.

I find it interesting that you mention "Last Midnight" is about how crazy the world gets when people are selfish. It's also the Witch revealing everything to everyone. She lays all the cards down on the table.
It is part response to "Your Fault":

Had to get your wish doesn't matter how,
Anyway it doesn't matter now

Part solution:
What really matters is the blame
Someone you can blame
Fine if that's the thing you enjoy
Placing the blame
If that's the aim
Give me the blame

And one giant eff you to them

She turns the Midnight symbol into one of fear, and to one that symbolizes the end. IF they don't change, they will all die, they have got to band together. Her decision to leave the world, by scattering the beans removes the blame from herself, she may be the one to scatter them, but if they don't pick them up, then they are ultimatly responsible for what happens. It's their world too, and you can't just be passive.

The Witch is the most practical person in the play. She knows just about everything aside from: How to keep her power and her beauty; how to keep Rapunzel; and how to stop the inevitable from happening. She chastises the characters for being good and nice, claiming that it isn't always right, but she never calls herself blameless.