Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated?- Page 3

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 10/30/16 at 11:11pm

A8 sir, I think you're very carefully cherry picking from amongst the critics, snobs and award givers to suit your argument. Yes, Frank Rich had an especially deep love of all things Sondheim when he was running the Times desk, but he retired from that beat decades ago and other critics have been more reticent. 

Back in the 70's Clive Barnes was left utterly cold by COMPANY, FOLLIES and PACIFIC OVERTURES and only warmed a little to A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC.

The Tony voters failed to award best score to FORUM, ANYONE CAN WHISTLE, PACIFIC OVERTURES, SUNDAY IN THE PARK..., or THE FROGS. And ASSASSINS and ROAD SHOW never even qualified for a nomination for Best Score.

There are critics from the dailies to The New Yorker to the TV Networks both highbrow and low, who continue to find fault with Sondheim's musical instincts (if not with his lyrical output).

And I don't think there's a critic (or a fan) alive who actually liked his ridiculous new song "God" for the review SONDHEIM ON SONDHEIM. 

[UrNotAMachine]

Posted: 10/30/16 at 11:45pm

I liked "God." It's meant to be a fun tongue-in-cheek song and it's got some clever lines. 

[Mildred Plotka]

Posted: 10/30/16 at 11:58pm

I don't take much stiock in an "opinion" that accuses others of liking something because they are sheep. Like Sondheim or don't. Fine.  But insulting people who do is childish, petty, and ignorant. 

[Musical Master]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 12:10am

I shall give a simple answer to that question...

 

 

 

No.

[Ranger Tom]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 1:20am

Troll

[SweetLips]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 1:31am

By whom?

It's all subjective.

What does Sondheim think?--and does he care?

Does he rate himself?--sitting at home saying--God I'm overrated.

All so silly.

 

[gypsy101]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 9:47am

i mean, the man's a god; he wrote the score to Sweeney Todd with a nod to De Sade.

[SamIAm]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 1:38pm

We are fortunate to be living at the same time as Sondheim. He is truly gifted. While much of his work  has not met with commercial success, it is well worth the research and exploration. You will definitely be hooked!

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 2:14pm

The original poster did not offer any of his thoughts to support why he feels Stephen Sondheim is overrated. So then what is the purpose of this thread?

The original poster has been around since 2008.  He knows the question is a grenade and posted with no other intent than to amuse himself with those who would sincerely respond.  The purpose of the thread is only to amuse the OP.

I can't believe people are still fussing over After Eight's reply. I thought he was fair with his response. It's called an opinion for a reason.

Read more posts by After Eight and you'll understand.  The ironic thing is...the last person to acknowledge what is an opinion is the fictional character known as "After Eight".  Even if you still want to believe After Eight is real, there is no point in discussing anything with him, especially the concept of opinions.  But save your breath for an argument or discussion with someone resembling an actual person rather than to perpetuate his malicious ruse.  Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he were the sock puppet of another BWW member (which has happened several times before).  I can think of at least three likely candidates off the top of my head.

[hork]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 7:45pm

I'm not a fan of the word "overrated," but I think it's funny that some people are using his lack of commercial success as evidence that Sondheim is not overrated. I mean, no one would ever say, "Ingmar Bergman can't be overrated, look at his weak box office grosses!" At least, not without being laughed at. Popularity and level of praise are two different things.

[BroadwayConcierge]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 7:48pm

For the love of God, people need to stop commenting on this thread.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 8:06pm

This stupid f*cking thread. 

[hork]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 8:14pm

This thread is underrated.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 8:17pm

OlBlueEyes said: "Time will tell. One or two of these songs written 70-80 years ago by Rodgers and Hart ("My Funny Valentine", "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered"....

Now I will duck and cover. I really am warming up to Sondheim, gradually..

 

 

"

No need to duck, in my view. But I think your argument re longevity of popular songs is misapplied here. It's an argument more relative to pop music than theater music. (The two forms coincided for about a half a century, from c. 1917 to c. 1967.

Theater music nowadays is written to advance a plot, reveal character, comment on theme, etc., of a dramatic work in the moment. Its purpose is NOT to be popular outside the show a century later. The artists you mention were undeniably great at writing pop songs in a period when musicals had formulaic plots and stock characters, and the function of songs was to become hits. None of those things are true of Sondheim shows, so comparing "Losing My Mind" to "But Not for Me" says nothing about the quality of either.

Updated On: 10/31/16 at 08:17 PM

[CindersGolightly]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 8:27pm

I'm TIRED.

[binau]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 9:24pm

I honestly don't believe a8 hates musicals as much as he would lead us to believe. He attends far too much theatre and pays far too much attention to small details of musicals (even Sondheim musicals), such as very specific lyrics from songs, for someone that would outright hate it. The idea that someone would continue spending so much money, mental effort and time to see the musicals that a8 does just wouldn't make any sense if he hated everything he saw. 

Maybe it's not his favourite, but I just can't buy that he hates Sondheim as much as he leads us to believe (I think it's funny trolling). He seems to know more about Sondheim shows that many of my friends who are Sondheim fans. If someone hates something basic psychology tells us he would avoid it. Yet A8 will probably be at the first preview for the next Sondheim show or revival and be paying meticulous attention to every detail. 

 

 

[carnzee]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 10:19pm

qolbinau said: "I honestly don't believe a8 hates musicals as much as he would lead us to believe. He attends far too much theatre and pays far too much attention to small details of musicals (even Sondheim musicals), such as very specific lyrics from songs, for someone that would outright hate it. The idea that someone would continue spending so much money, mental effort and time to see the musicals that a8 does just wouldn't make any sense if he hated everything he saw. 

Maybe it's not his favourite, but I just can't buy that he hates Sondheim as much as he leads us to believe (I think it's funny trolling). He seems to know more about Sondheim shows that many of my friends who are Sondheim fans. If someone hates something basic psychology tells us he would avoid it. Yet A8 will probably be at the first preview for the next Sondheim show or revival and be paying meticulous attention to every detail. 

 

Yes, that's what makes him a 'troll', honey. It's like the saying goes : the opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy . 

 

[After Eight]

Posted: 10/31/16 at 10:59pm

"I honestly don't believe a8 hates musicals as much as he would lead us to believe."

I think someone has cast a strange spell on this thread, since logic, reason, and concern for the facts seem to have have all flown out the window. I don't know where you ever got the notion that I hate musicals when I've expressed my love for them countless times on this board --- for the good ones, that is.

Why just last week, I saw two small revivals of musicals that left me on air: Finian's Rainbow and Funny Face. Without the slightest effort, they blew those wretched critics' darlings like Sunday in the Park With George, Falsettos, Hamilton, Fun Home, Book of Mormon, etc., etc., out of the water. 

And a general suggestion offered at large: instead of trying to find a troll everywhere you look, why not accept the (admittedly outrageous) notion that people actually mean what they say?  It will spare you a lot of foolish pronouncements.

[gypsy101]

Posted: 11/1/16 at 12:43am

it's been established that sondheim isn't overrated. can we close the thread?

[CindersGolightly]

Posted: 11/1/16 at 12:47am

How do you guys feel about french onion soup?

[A Director]

Posted: 11/1/16 at 1:15am

A8 - You hadn't posted for a few weeks, so I hoped you had shuffled off your mortal coil.  Much to my dismay, you're back spreading your worthless comments.  How sad you prefer to live in the past.

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 11/1/16 at 3:37am

It has always surprised me that Sondheim and his mentor, Hammerstein, with such strong personal ties, could be so different in the preferred tone of their songs. Hammerstein was often criticized for being too sentimental, a judgment that could never be made of Sondheim. Hammerstein, as the writer of book and lyrics and the driving force behind the two shows that changed musicals from entertainment to art, can take the criticism.

Would Sondheim have ever ventured near the two inspirational anthems, "You'll Never Walk Alone" and "Climb Ev'ry Mountain"?  No. "Walk Alone" does come close to going over the top, but is saved by placing it into the world of those simple people who were singing it.

Sondheim is accused of not putting enough visible emotion into songs. "Send in the Clowns," one of the Broadway all-time all-timers, is about a once missed opportunity for love coming oh-so-close on a second chance but ending in rejection. The lyrics are understated. The rejected party displays the great hurt with a bitter sadness, but not with open anger.

Hammerstein's shot at a near sure thing love that just slipped through the fingers: "This Nearly Was Mine." No doubt about the pain and anguish bubbling to the surface there.

A Hammerstein song of discovery that you are in love:

"I'm in Love, I'm in Love, I'm in Love, I'm in Love, I'm in Love, I'm in Love, I'm in Love, I'm in Love,  I'm in love with a wonderful guy."

Sondheim (early Sondheim) on the same

My window pane may not give much light
But I see you, so the view is bright
If I can love you, I'll pay the dirt no heed
With your love what more do I need?

It's also curious that when Sondheim was functioning only as lyricist for Bernstein in West Side Story, he produced heated and deeply emotional lyrics.

Maria! 
Say it loud and there's music playing, 
Say it soft and it's almost like praying. 

Could he written anything so tender ten years later?

Everybody in West Side Story wears their hearts upon their sleeves.

As junior member of the team, only writing lyrics for WSS, Sondheim probably had not much control over the directions that his lyrics would take. Did he have trouble with the lyrics to the highly emotional scene between Anita and Maria after Chino has been killed by Tony. "A Boy Like That"/"I have a Love" If so, he managed quite well. Neither the words nor the music of West Side Story have come under much criticism. It is just accepted as one of the great scores.

Not too useful, I suppose to take a few songs out of the hundred written by the two men and compare them.

I think, to settle this in my own mind, I would describe Sondheim's songs as sophisticated. Written by one of high intellect and a great knowledge of the ways of the world, to be enjoyed chiefly by others of the same ilk. No compromises to appeal to those who don't understand or don't want to hear his truth. As with novelists James Joyce and Henry James, a high level of art can be achieved at the expense of mass appeal.

Updated On: 11/1/16 at 03:37 AM

[After Eight]

Posted: 11/1/16 at 6:53am

"No compromises to appeal to those who don't understand or don't want to hear his truth"

Truth? What truth? Hogwash is more like it. Bitter, rancid hogwash that is as far from truth as Pluto is from the sun.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/1/16 at 12:03pm

 

Bitter, rancid hogwash that is as far from truth as Pluto is from the sun.

 

As far from truth as Pluto is from the sun at which point during its elliptical orbit? The perihelion or the aphelion?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[After Eight]

Posted: 11/1/16 at 1:39pm

"As far from truth as Pluto is from the sun at which point during its elliptical orbit? The perihelion or the aphelion?"

Guess.