Is there anyone who hates local one right now and considres themselves a liberal?- Page 2

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 5:52pm

"I just believe that their rules and demands are archaic and need to change with the world"

And that's why contracts are renegotiated every 3 to 4 years, and they do change.

[UnionMade]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 5:54pm

You beat me to it JAG!

[the_gambler3]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 6:03pm

I too am an independent liberal and a proud member of the WGA. I am currently on strike and don't take lightly the effects my union's actions have on the general public who enjoy the entertainment we provide. It is because of this, I have questioned my initial negative gut reaction to Local One's motives.

Let me be clear, I WANT to empathize with their position and support this union as I want others to support mine. But unfortunately, as the week has progressed, my opinion has only been confirmed that Local One isn't asking for fair compensation, they are simply trying to maintain a status quo that was bound to be questioned. I watched the press conference and can't help but be mystified as to why the union heads think the general public will support both overcompensation and absolute job security even if there is no job? Everyone has mortgages and families and rents to pay. As a writer, I understand the risks (and benefits) of working in the creative industry. I may be overcompensated one year if there is a high demand for my services, then unemployed the next. If you're not able to assume those risks you shouldn't be in the industry.

I am of course sympathetic towards the individual stagehands, I know they work extremely hard and are as dedicated to theater as anyone else. I know that this strike must be awful for them mentally and emotionally because theater is their life and the companies they work with feel like their families. But they must have known the system was broken and it would come to this at some point?

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 6:19pm

"...and absolute job security even if there is no job?"

There is no absolute job security now. And I don't believe that is what the union is proposing. Your job and it's security ends the minute the show closes, or when the load-in or load-out that your working on ends. With no guarantee when you'll be hired for the next one. There are over 3000 thousand members of Local One, are you saying that they are all now securely working?

I believe that the job security they're looking for (Local One Guys correct me if I'm wrong) is when the Production Manager calls them and tells them they have a load-in that will last two weeks and to clear there schedules for those weeks. So, if they do that means they can't accept other work for those weeks. Then they get to the load in and it's going faster than expected or they find that they don't need as many men as they originally planned for, then the League wants the option of just releasing those stagehands, no questions asked and without payment. So, if any of those hands turned down other work, because they were asked to clear their schedule and make themselves available for this particular load in. They've lost work, and salary. Does that sound fair and equitable to you? To ask someone to work for you for two weeks, then renege?

[Tkt2Ride]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 6:36pm

I too support this strike because I believe St Martin is incompetent and is promising things she cannot deliver on. Had she not publicly threatened a Lock out and then tried to force the Union to work under their rules in violation of their previous contract than we wouldn't be on strike.

Amazing how so many people in America will allow their employers to just use them so badly. No matter when the strike was called people would be angry, so you can't please everyone. Anyone though who cannot see why this is happening, especially Union Laborers just astound me! This was probably why it took so long for this Union to strike because everyone will look at their pay and refuse to judge them by the industry. Ignorance abounds and it is just so very sad to see so much of it from so many vocal people.

Many of these same people have honored your Companies Strikes and yet you bicker and say your reasons are just but their's isn't. Just because they make more money than you do. It is so much more than that.

If you are a liberal and don't support Unions, you are a fool and refusing to see how our Country is slowly sinking into a Cast system because everyone is jealous and petty.

People who have ever read their Union Contracts know full and well there is always something stupid in them. Picking up on the stupid issues which by the way, the League agreed on and endorsed in the past is just ridiculous. You act like they haven't renewed their contracts in one hundred years! Just sadly mistaken.

Someone even whet so far as to explain why there is a flyman in the Theatres. Please read the other threads. If you don't have the time to understand the issues, don't pass judgment. The Media is owned by big Corporations. The same person who put hundreds of us Americans out of work, on unemployment, so that they can control the Media. Wars have been started and supported by Americans who refuse to learn all of the details behind it.

We trust too much on our idiot boxes for information. At least, if you are that lazy please watch the BBC. Even though they too have an agenda they are more balanced when it come to news about Americans overseas. Wouldn't trust them with British News but as for gossip about us, they are good. Air America is also another decent choice if you want to know what is really going on here everyday. Tons of Political coverage and news from what is really going on in America.

So it isn't our battle. If this Union is broken down to a mere skeleton of what it was you better believe yours is next. Someone brought up the Auto Workers, the Air Traffic controllers.

Are our Cars safer and more reliable? Do we even make Cars most people want to buy? Are planes arriving on time? Are Airports better managed than before? Are we really safer now that we have hardly any National Guard in this Country?

We are not negotiating this contract. Both side need to sit down but they have been for months on end. A 20million dollar warchest tells me that Union Busting is what this is all about. Some of you would just give your rights away but then you should not hold a Union job if you do not support it's principals.

Most people I hear are just peeved because they can't see a show. Neither can I. One of my favorites will probably not come back on stage. But there are always revivals. I feel sorry this is disrupting people's lives but people still have the right to negotiate the conditions of their work. I don't understand why others feel they get to decide for them.

The Stagehands said enough is enough. If they continued to work under rules they didn't believe in then they might as throw the Union away. They believe in their right to be treated fairly and have a say in what conditions they will work under, so do you.

Maybe you are right. They should all just quit. If they do though, the quality of your shows will quickly diminish. There is a big shortage of well trained Technicians. The work is hard, labor intensive and requires the right skills. Not everyone can do the work well. That is why the pay is so high. Still, it doesn't touch what Hollywood Stars make or what Producers and Investors make when a show is successful. So either way, you would be going without a show and what you will find is something a lot less spectacular in it's place.

Personally, I think we all deserve to be rich. We live in America and there is plenty of money to go around. It needs to go around a lot more and people need to get paid for their hard work. People though also need to work hard and get better educated in what they do too. These people have done the training and can do the heavy lifting. They earn their pay just like all of us do. Can't we at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they are not doing this to just screw everyone?

Any day now, the Producers can stand up and announce that they are willing to put an end to this Strike by sitting down and negotiating wisely. When they do, than you can see your shows. Until then, we get to just hear all of you, especially you Union folks, whine about a Union standing up for itself for once..

Please, at least list the Locals you belong to, so I will remember it when you have to strike. Already we know of a Teacher's Union Member who feels cheated by this Strike. Luckily they don't sound like they are from my area. Those who are loyal Union Members might remember you, when the next ballot vote comes around asking us to pay even more taxes to support your wages. I know more than a few Teachers I feel need to go back to College and learn how to teach. Want to talk about how tenure has allowed some really bad Teachers to continue to abuse Students and provide them with less than an adequate Education? Unions are in trying days right now and need the support of American People who realize why we have Unions and why we continue to fight for a better lifestyle. Even when we know there are a few who work for them who really shouldn't be allowed to.

[the_gambler3]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 6:40pm

Thanks for the clarification, JustAGuy. Like I said, I want to better understand the situation and there seems to be a blackout of information from both sides about the specific issues. As a writer, my minimums are set by the union but I negotiate my own contract with individual production companies for every job. If I accept a job, thus turning down other work, I would absolutely expect to get paid no matter what... i.e. releasing me after I am hired is not an option. I agree, that would absolutely be unfair.

I guess I am not clear on the "minimum" hiring requirements which is what I meant by "absolute job security." In my mind that would be like forcing a network or production company to have a set number of writing staff even if the show needed less. I think this is a sticking point for many people. I have heard the safety argument, but I'm not sure if that's just spin to ensure a predictable amount of jobs continue to exist?
Updated On: 11/13/07 at 06:40 PM

[roadguy]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 6:55pm

megsig,
THe producers already do pick how many stagehands are needed for each show. If people would spend more time READING you would understand this. No where in local one's expired contract does it say every broadway show must have "x" number of hands to load in, run, load out a show. EACH SHOW'S PRODUCTION TEAM decides how many stagehands they feel are needed. Sometimes, their calculations are incorrect, either hire to many or not enough. Why?? Because no one has ever setup the show before, no one knows how many hands it will take to build a new set. The investors lose money when the theatres are dark. One show closes, they want the next show loaded in and running ASAP. How do you do this, hire enough people to setup a show in 4 weeks, instead of half the people to setup in 8 weeks. THe local doesn't go to a producer and say, "hmmm, i think Phantom of the Opera is gonna be a huge show, you should hire 100 of us to setup the show" It just doesn't work that way. If it did work that way and the local is so greedy as many of you claim, why are there Local One members not working?? If the local set the numbers, trust me people would not be unemployed in the local.....


"agreed. i am a liberal also, but i can't support local 1. it seems incredibly reasonable to me that producers should have more flexibility in determining how many stagehands are needed on a show per show basis"

[the_gambler3]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 7:10pm

Tkt2Ride: Due to the fact that I'm in a union, I of course believe in workers striking for fair compensation. But I am also an individual with my own brain don't believe in blindly supporting issues without knowing the facts from both parties. I'm sure members of other unions have differing opinions the WGA strike. And I hope they question our reasoning and resolve it in their minds as I am trying to do. Does that mean I would ever cross a picket line? Of course, I wouldn't. But I still am entitled to coming to my own conclusions about whether the strike is just or not.

Roadguy: I too was under the impression there was a minimum number of stagehands set by the union. And like I said in my previous post, I watched the IATSE press conference and have read all I could find on the internet. If what you're posting is true, the information is not making it's way to the general public.

[roadguy]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 7:33pm

the_gambler3,
What I tell you is truth.. I have no reason to lie..
Have you ever seen the Rocky movies? I'm sure you have.. Rocky is the underdog.. If he wins in the first 5 minutes of the movie, you'd be pissed right?? I paid 10 bucks for a 5 minute movie.. The media is making Local One to be the underdog.. Financially they are.. Local One doesn't financially earn 6 and 7 figure amounts per week, the producers do. Since the war in Irag is old news, Bin Laden hasn't released a video in a while, N Korea must have exploded with nuclear testing, the media has nothing else to talk about... So what does any good writer/journalist do?? They build up a story to create the good guys and the bad guys, the character build, they build a plot.. THe problem is they're only showing one true side of the story.. Is it the media's fault?? Not exactly.. Local One isn't in negotiations with you, the general public, nor are they in negotiations with the media. However, the League feels the need to tell the media what they feel is happening. Will the League tell you they're not cooperating?? Of course not.. Did anyone with the League who claimed to be available 24/7 for negotiations mention that they were all at the openning of Young Frankenstein?? Doesn't sound very positive to me...

THe difference between the WGA strike and this one is very simple.. THey have one item on their agenda that is easily explained.. Local One has a much different agenda.. The common public can't understand the rules needed for a safe work environment because they have no clue what happens during a load-in,run or load out of a show. Ignorance.. nothing wrong with that. THe bigger problem between this and the WGA strike.. Very simple.. I have Tivo, i can watch reruns, i can watch garbage reality TV where writers aren't involved anyway.. I can't Tivo my favorite broadway show. I don't have to buy a plane ticket and hotel rooms to watch tv, i do for broadway.. So most people here are complaining that they've wasted money that can't be refunded. I'm sorry. That's making the public more outraged because Local One struck. What they don't see is they had no choice. Unions don't throw the word strike around loosely.. I didn't get paid for the one hour of overtime, i'm going on strike.. Doesn't happen. This decision didn't happen overnight. If you went to work one day and your boss said, sorry, I've changed the rules.. I'm not gonna pay you overtime anymore but i need you to work 16 hours today. WOuld you be upset?? (hypothetical, it's not based on the Local One arguements)

"Roadguy: I too was under the impression there was a minimum number of stagehands set by the union. And like I said in my previous post, I watched the IATSE press conference and have read all I could find on the internet. If what you're posting is true, the information is not making it's way to the general public. "

[dented146]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 7:59pm

I come from a family of Jewish bleeding heart liberals primarily from New York. Now I find myself with a vested interest in this strike. From all I've read, it seems to me that the producers have let a poor situation continue to the point that the remedy seems unfair. I honestly believe that the producers occupy the higher ground in this case.

Regardless, however, I am bothered by the verb HATE being used. There is plenty to be upset about, sad abount, pi--ed off about, but nothing happening here rises to the level where hate
should be a response.

The people of Local One are people who want the best deal possible. The producers are people who feel that others are taking advantage of their deep pockets. Both sides feel they are right.

This strike will be settled when both sides reach the point where they understand each other more and hate each other less.

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 8:34pm

"I know more than a few Teachers I feel need to go back to College and learn how to teach. Want to talk about how tenure has allowed some really bad Teachers to continue to abuse Students and provide them with less than an adequate Education? "

Wow, you are REALLY a jackass. You just made SO many people think "hmm since he said this I will now think everything he says is crap"

Teachers know how to teach. They would not have their jobs if they did not. Yes, some have gotten uninspired but students are not getting ABUSED by their teachers and if students aren't getting an adequate education it is mostly due to regulations put on the teachers, not the teachers themselves.

AND want to know why other unions don't support you? Your demands are ridiculous. And if you haven't noticed...this country has ALWAYS been a caste system, people have just tried to hide it. IT will never change. Your precious union won't change it nothing will. Stop whining and go back to work doing your "skilled work" You are making ALL stagehands look bad and many of your comments have made me lose respect for your profession as a whole. I hope they all know how people on this board are representing them and that those on here pay for it.

[Tkt2Ride]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 8:42pm

Well dented I too don't like the term hate because it is so definitive a word. Maybe some don't agree with the issues but if you believe in two parties right to negotiate and come to terms with a valid contract than they deserve this time to settle their differences.

I am weary of trying to give people examples of how this happens often in everyday life. I stand though by everyone right to organize and work together for the common good of us all. It is too bad this strike in particular effects so many others jobs. This is the saddest part of it. I don't believe it was made without a lot of thought and conversation between members of each of the Unions involved. Because of this and the united support of the International League of Unions, I feel they deserve the time they are asking for.

Not every battle is fought in a day or every contract resolved on time. It is unfortunate that it has come to this but it is their right to strike.

I want those same rights when a contract is facing me. The League is a Union itself and here we have two large groups going at each other. This is business though.

We are all individuals, right. Those of us who understand and support Unions have a responsibility to respect their right to solve this no matter how ridiculous this all seems. Again, had there not been a shut down in negotiations and a public threat to Lock out all Union Members from the Theater we would not be watching picketers right now.

I support anyone's choice to strike if they feel they are being treated unfairly. I also however take issue with those in other Unions who feel their issues are more worthy than their brotherhood or sisterhood in another Union. It is not your fight.

It is good to read though Gambler that even if you don't agree with the issues you will still honor the Strike perimeters.

So in essences you say you support the Strike against your better judgment. Ah well. Another disgruntled Union Member. This is why Unions are fighting so hard to win their meager battles and why the League has saved up to go after this Union in particular the way that it has.

Please keep reading with an open mind. Hopefully than you will realize why International is supporting this Strike and why it had to take place now right before the Holiday Season.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 8:43pm

Caitie, to defend ALL teachers just because you're boyfriend is one isn't really going to make you look too informed on the situation. If you've never had to put up with teachers who really have no idea what they're doing, do not have the students' best interests at heart, and who absolutely SHOULD NOT be in the classroom, consider yourself extremely lucky. Not all of us have been quite so fortunate. Just because teachers are certified does not mean that there aren't a great, great many out there who don't fall anywhere near the category of good. I'm sorry, but such a generlized claim as "that's their job so they must know how to do it" is absolutely absurd. Tell that to everyone who has ever been put through hell by a teacher on a power trip, to the kids who went to elementary schools where teachers THREW FURNITURE. Tell it to the students in their high school's top ten who were made into examples for the administration's own abuse of power, and to the people who came from high schools where education was absolutely, completely, totally subservient to enforcement of ego-driven authority, and to the kids who sat in classes doing nothing for YEARS because the teachers didn't know their left from their right. There are absolutely certified teachers out there who are neither knowledgeable nor adequately qualified, so no, just because it is their job does NOT mean they know how to do it, or that just because they are certified, there is not a single, solitary teacher who isn any less than good at his or her job. There are MANY, and I envy your blissful ignorance. How can you possibly say such a thing?

I'm sorry to detract from the topic at hand, but I couldn't let that go without saying something.

Updated On: 11/13/07 at 08:43 PM

[roadguy]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 8:44pm

caitiesus,
Just because someone went to school doesn't make them perfect at their jobs.. There are good teachers and bad teachers, there are good stagehands and bad ones.. Parents don't discipline their kids anymore and yes kids are a big reason other's don't learn.. But ya know what?? If there's a class clown in my class, I still go home every night and read the next history lesson and do my math homework and show up for class on time.. It wasn't the abuse of a student to a teach that causes teachers to get in trouble for sexual harrasement.. Give me a break...

I do want to know why the other unions don't support Local One, being as that they stand on the pickets lines with them??
"Teachers know how to teach. They would not have their jobs if they did not. Yes, some have gotten uninspired but students are not getting ABUSED by their teachers and if students aren't getting an adequate education it is mostly due to regulations put on the teachers, not the teachers themselves.

AND want to know why other unions don't support you? Your demands are ridiculous. And if you haven't noticed...this country has ALWAYS been a caste system, people have just tried to hide it. IT will never change. Your precious union won't change it nothing will. Stop whining and go back to work doing your "skilled work" You are making ALL stagehands look bad and many of your comments have made me lose respect for your profession as a whole. I hope they all know how people on this board are representing them and that those on here pay for it.

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 8:48pm

"If you've never had to put up with teachers who really have no idea what they're doing, do not have the students' best interests at heart, and who absolutely SHOULD NOT be in the classroom, consider yourself extremely lucky. "

I never did. Because bad teachers were not hired where I went.

And every teacher I know is a fabulous teacher. The crappy teachers are by FAR the minority. Emcee if you had ****ty teachers, sorry, maybe people in your area should have done something about that one. I didn't support all teachers just because my boyfriend is one, but because all teachers I know are fabulous and ARE there for students. Don't assume things that are not true. It makes you look stupid.

And most bad teachers do not get jobs. There are reasons they are subs for years and years and never get hired so they do different things.

[Fantabulous428]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 8:55pm

Don't assume things that are not true. It makes you look stupid.

What an ironic statement.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 8:58pm

Well then, again, you're extremely lucky. And also quite in the minority. Don't assume that your experience was the norm. I'm assuming nothing; I am speaking from experience. I had a handful of INCREDIBLE teachers who inspired me and changed my life, as teachers are supposed to do. But I also had a lot of teachers who did not teach. Literally. You know nothing about the area I'm from, and neither you should assume you know everything about the education system, because if you think FABUOUS teachers are the majority just because all of the ones YOU had were, you are absolutely wrong. If all teachers are so great, and the problem is so isolated, as you seem to be telling me that it is, why on earth would education reform be SUCH an issue in this country? Because it's a fabricated problem? Because it's everyone ELSE's fault? People in my area should have done something about it? Do you have any CLUE how it works? Corruption like that in the education system is top down, Caitie. There's no ROOM in a place like the one where I grew up to do anything about it. PLENTY of bad teachers get jobs. Wake up.

And somehow I look stupid.

Updated On: 11/13/07 at 08:58 PM

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 8:59pm

Damn folks. All right people, take one and pass to your neighbor

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 9:00pm

Then your area needs to change the system. IN Ohio, if teachers are bad, parents complain to the top and it is stopped.

And why am I not surprised that Fantab decided to add a bitchy statement? Where are the rest of Mano and Raul's stalkers?

[misschung]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 9:03pm

uh oh, we've opened the education system Pandora's Box..

I'm glad that the system in Ohio works like a well oiled machine, but I've rarely gotten anything accomplished by having my parent complain to the people on top.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 9:04pm

What planet are you living on? Parent complaints do NOTHING. Do you know anything about the power heirarchy? Clearly not. And yes, I know from experience.

Fantab spoke the truth.

And when people resort to comments like the pathetic one with which you ended your last post, it's beyond transparent that you've got nothing else to stand on. Somehow I didn't feel the need to strike so low, but you clearly have nothing else relevant to say, so you've resorted to such petty insults. Congratulations, you've probably just successfully invalidated any legitimacy you may have had in this discussion.

Updated On: 11/13/07 at 09:04 PM

[Fantabulous428]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 9:06pm

Caitie, that wasn't intended to be a bitchy statement, as you so nicely pointed it out as. I found your statement to be ironic. You just can't assume that all teachers are fabulous and inspiring and life-changing because you've only had positive experiences.

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 9:06pm

Hey i call it like i see it.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 9:08pm

And per the trend, you call it wrong.

Whatever, I suppose I should allow the actual topic to resume. I should've known you'd have been a complete bitch if anyone DARED to disagree with you. Next time, look around before the pot calls the kettle black.

Updated On: 11/13/07 at 09:08 PM

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 9:15pm

"Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day. Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day"