Jerome Robbins/Succeed in 2005's Broadway?- Page 2

[WISHIHADATONY]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 4:22pm

Robbiej, I have never read that Ethel Merman adored Robbins, although she obviously starred in two shows he did. She was aware of his genius. Her just being there very often helped keep Robbins in control.

Zero Mostel DID NOT ADORE ROBBINS, trust me. But he too, realized how Robbins turned around the "fortunes" of his previous Broadway musical, A FUNNY THING HAPPENED ON THE WAY TO THE FORUM and did not object that Robbins worked on FIDDLER. Again, like Merman, it helped keep Robbins in control when Zero Mostel was around.

I just wanted to be clear that I did not write that Ethel Merman or Zero Mostel adored Jerome Robbins. That was not the case. :)

[robbiej]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 4:32pm

Sorry...thought that's what your wrote...had a misread!

[Justice]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 4:39pm

Would you say that Robbins was worse than Otto Preminger who shouted at not only his stars, but extra's as well (He made Dihanne Carrol cry the first day of shooting "Carmen Jones"). He destroyed hopes and dreams of many performers, a lot of the times in an abusive attempt to get actual emotion on camera from them.
He was fired after appearing on two episodes of Batman, because of his incapabilities as a human being.

Robbins, at least, was a success.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 5:01pm

I'm not surprised by this - it's not the first I've heard of it - but I've never heard actual stories. Thanks a lot WISHIHADATONY, I find this really really interesting. All along I thought your avatar was of you...I guess it can't be if you were around for dress rehearsals of WEST SIDE STORY, huh? Thanks for sharing.

[ElTico68]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 5:03pm

^ Ditto that... this has been quite a learning experience, and now I want to learn more...

[ChrisLovesShows]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 5:15pm

Today's Otto Preminger/Jerome Robbins: Simon Cowell. Except for the talent part, I mean.

[WISHIHADATONY]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 5:21pm

munkustrap178, let's say the pic is from a few years back :)

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 5:23pm

Is it really you? You look exactly like my friend Jim.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 5:25pm

Yes, he cropped the original photo -- in the full picture you'll see that he's actually standing next to Jerome Robbins backstage at that gypsy rehearsal

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 5:26pm

Oh, awesome! Do you know each other, Margo?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 5:27pm

Just joking, Munk

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 5:29pm

Oh, I get it now...hahahah.

[Marquise]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 7:15pm

none of this suprises me one bit. i've read "dance with demons" hoping to get more insight into his genius and was truly suprised.

i think the only performers who have had anything positive to say about him, that i've read are rita moreno, chita rivera and natalie wood. he actually loved natalie wood so much he wanted to marry her.

i was truly disturbed when i finally found out how cruel he was to so many.
Updated On: 2/25/05 at 07:15 PM

[alterego]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 9:32pm

Have I missed something? Why is this being brought up now?

[Jon]

Posted: 2/25/05 at 9:41pm

Don't forget, Zero Mostel and his Forum co-star Jack Gilford were both victims of the blacklists, and Robbins named names. Mostel was quoted as saying, "I'll work with the man, but I'd never go to dinner with the lousy bastard".

[WISHIHADATONY]

Posted: 2/26/05 at 11:56am

munkustrap, I am not your friend Jim:) and appreciate you are curious about my "looks." The pic is from many years ago and I have indeed been in a relationship for over 20 years now.

p.s. to Margo, hmmmmmmmmmm, I wonder if we do know each other.

ALTEREGO, the original question was: WOULD ROBBINS BEHAVIOR BE TOLERATED IN THE THEATER WORLD OF 2005??? :) It is simply being brought up now because it was discussed at dinner a few nights ago with some other folks who had worked with Robbins and we were curious if he would be "allowed" to continue working in 2005.

[WISHIHADATONY]

Posted: 2/26/05 at 12:11pm

ROBBIEJ, You have me fascinated :) by something you wrote:

"I actually know three ladies who worked with him (two different FIDDLERS and JEROME ROBBINS' BROADWAY) who all adored the man and who never felt abused by him."

Having known EVERYONE involved onstage and behind the scenes of JEROME ROBBINS BROADWAY and its subsequent tour as well as having known EVERYONE involved in any production of FIDDLER Robbins was personally involved with, except some overseas productions of FIDDLER he worked on briefly in the late 1960s, Your assertion is simply shocking.

I and/or my "other half" must personally know the three ladies of whom you speak and we are baffled on who on earth they could be. I have NEVER BEFORE heard of or witnessed anyone in a Robbins production who "adored" him or did NOT feel abused by him. The only folks who did not feel direct abuse from him at times were "big name stars." Perhaps these three lady friends of yours were joking with you.

If you think they were not joking with you, I would love it if you would kindly PM me with their names or PM me and simply ask one of these ladies to phone me. We WILL certainly know each other as they worked with Robbins on JRB or FIDDLER. I will simply be fascinated to hear directly from them that they "adored" Robbins and did not feel abused by him.

What your 3 lady friends are telling you is simply unprecedented and absolutely stunning to me. Again, I suspect they were joking with you. If not, I look forward to speaking with any one of them to renew an old acquaintance and to find out what mind altering medications they are likely taking. :)

Thanks Robbie J!! Hope to hear from you. :)

[eslgr8]

Posted: 2/26/05 at 12:48pm

Wish...thanks for sharing this with us. The lack of humanity shown by Robbins (I guess I'm being polite) is not made up for by his genius. If, as you say, in the world of 2005, his sadistic behaviour would not have been put up with, that does not necessarily mean that he would have been blacklisted and no longer allowed to work. Perhaps it would just have meant that he learned (was forced to learn) to control himself around everyone, the way he obviously was able to do around big stars. If so, perhaps his genius would have been allowed to flourish with less of the sadism. Or maybe he was simply a lost cause. What do you think? (PS: I also was confused about the avatar because it did seem to be of someone younger than your posts would indicate. Nice pic, and very contemporary looking. Also, congrats on 20 years with your partner!)

[WISHIHADATONY]

Posted: 2/26/05 at 12:55pm

eslgr8, thank you for your very kind and sweet words. Perhaps the world of 2005 would give us even more Robbins genius and more works. I don't know. Equity is much stronger now than it was in years past. I cannot fathom any show's equity representative in 2005(all shows now have an equity rep voted for or assigned, who ensures that all Equity rules are adhered to) allowing Robbins' behavior to go unreported and ultimately dealt with.

In today's world we are much more sensitive about those who inflict abuse. Even geniuses who inflict abuse. It is fascinating to me as to how his career would differ or his personality would differ if he emerged on the Broadway scene in 2005 as opposed to the mid 1940s.

Alas, we will never know.

Updated On: 2/26/05 at 12:55 PM

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 2/26/05 at 1:01pm

Wasn't Robbins particularly kind to Debbie Shapiro? I may be wrong on this, but I've heard that he simply marvelled at her voice and treated her kindly because of it (and since she didn't dance in JRB, there was nothing for him to ever yell at her about -- he, of course, was VERY hard on dancers).

And as I mentioned before, I remember seeing an interview with Chita Rivera where she was asked directly how she felt about Robbins and was he as difficult to work for as everyone says and she said, "Well, he was always very kind to me" and went on to praise his genius. She, of course, was probably being a little diplomatic, but she didn't have a negative thing to say about him.

[magruder]

Posted: 2/26/05 at 1:03pm

It's quite possible that if Jerome Robbins was alive and working in the theatre of today, that the advancement in psychotropic medicines might have controlled his behavior to a certain degree. I still think, tyrant and sadist though he may have been, he'd still be sought after for his genius.

[Plum]

Posted: 2/26/05 at 1:08pm

See, here's the thing- Margo speculates that Robbins' self-loathing for being Jewish and gay was at least part of the reason he acted like such a bastard. There's no doubt that his behavior was enabled by his brilliance- people kept working with him because he was just that good. But speculating on how that Jerome Robbins would do if he were transplanted into today's Broadway is the wrong question to ask. Would he be the same person if he were born only, say, 40 years ago? Would he despise himself that much? Would there have been as much tolerance of his behavior if he did? There's a good chance he would still be a bastard, but perhaps not to the same degree.

[onceadancer2]

Posted: 2/26/05 at 1:09pm

Robbins was not the only sadist around. Remember that in his time directors were allowed a certain leeway. Union rules were not that strong. There were also saidists in other areas, music comes to mind. Do any of you remember the antics of Szell, Reiner, Toscanini, etc. Today, this would never be tolerated, but in those days it was looked on as some creative/maniacal outlet.

Also, a strong dancer such as Sono Osato or Tommy Rall would never take Robbins sadistic urges. They would have put a stop to it immediately. The world in which Robbins grew up, probably fueled by his own securities as a small, Jewish and gay man was not condudsive to personal growth and wisdom. Going to a ther apist in the 40s and 50s as a gay man could be atrying experience. Then the pervasive atmosphere was to convert, not lead and channel. It must have been very tough on a man as insecure as Robbins.

I would aslo like to add Robbins own insecurity as a choreographer. Unlike people such as Balanchine or Robert Alton, Jerome Robbins was not someone from whom choreography flowed. It was hard, arduous and always searching about for inspiration. There were two, three versions of a dance and perhaps a fourth. Robbins could never make up his mind. Also, working with the constant pressure of Broadway pur more undue pressure on him. Probably today they would give him medication!

Miriam

Updated On: 2/26/05 at 01:09 PM

[WISHIHADATONY]

Posted: 2/26/05 at 1:12pm

Margo, Chita Rivera is an angel. I do not think she would say a bad word about anyone, ever. Debbie did indeed escape direct Robbins wrath. Although, she was of course horrified at his behavior that she witnessed.

[WISHIHADATONY]

Posted: 2/26/05 at 1:14pm

MAGRUDER, I think you are correct. I think with the different psychoanalytical therapies and "attitudes" and medications available today, Robbins would likely display very different behavior, indeed.