Kiss of the Spider Woman- Page 2

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/11/15 at 9:01pm

I appreciate the correction, Goth. LOL.

One other concession: I should have said VALENTIN's point (initially) is that escapism = fascism. Obviously, Puig thinks "goodness" AND "beauty" (in Greek terms, good is defined by actions not intentions) have their respective values.

Otherwise, Fantod and Eric, I admit I am speaking in broad terms because this is a message board and I'm already criticized for being too verbose. (Hence, my more egregious claim in a previous post that something was both "acute" and "ambiguous". One of you should have called me on that, I think!) The point is not whether Valentin and Molina actually achieve penetration; the point is each loves the other in his own way. That is more important (to me) than a woman (even the fabulous Miss Rivera) climbing the netting.

I am also speaking from memory about a show I saw 20 years ago. Although I have reviewed the OBCR recently, I don't find it specific enough to be much help.

Alas, Fantod, being gay is not an automatic cure for homophobia. We gays grow up in the same society as non-gays. Also, I'm not talking about conscious intent so much as unconscious result.

Yes, Eric, I usually assign more blame to McNally because many of his other works express similar attitudes. But I have recently reread COLORED LIGHTS in which Kander and Ebb profess their disinterest in "politics". Quite the pair of Molinas in search of a Valentin. (And I disagree: despite the miscasting of Hurt, I think the film does a better job of dramatizing the pair than the musical, thanks to Julia.) With the possible exception of POTO, I think it's safe to assume Prince is always the muscle on a Prince show.

Updated On: 4/11/15 at 09:01 PM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/11/15 at 9:13pm

One other concession: I should have said VALENTIN's point (initially) is that escapism = fascism. Obviously, Puig thinks "goodness" AND "beauty" (in Greek terms, good is defined by actions not intentions) have their respective values.

That's a big correction and changes things completely   so I am glad you clarrified.  I was kinda confused where you were going with that. 

With the possible exception of POTO, I think it's safe to assume Prince is always the muscle on a Prince show."

 I don't disagree there (and he largely seemed to be on Phantom too judging by the rewrites he asked for, though of course by then ALW and CamMac who have at least equal size egos could use their influence, and Prince needed a hit.)

I dunno what else to say--I don't mean to dismiss your points by not replying.  I do understand them, and I do partly agree.  But part of it is they don't bother me as much, which sounds like a horrible thing to say, as they do you, part of it is a defeatist attitude that is kinda awful but I don't think they could have gone more the route you would have liked in a big musical anyway (maybe a few years later, post Angels in America's success they would have been slightly more open to doing so?) and partly I think you're blind to certain aspects, or misjudging them.  :P  But to be clear, I still respect your opinion and that you have made it so clear.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/11/15 at 9:56pm

I don't feel dismissed, Eric. You brought my views into the discussion.

But listen again to "Anything for Him". Molina sings "I don't care about his causes, but I'd do anything for him", a hook he has borrowed from the Spider Woman herself. On the contrary, Molina responds with "He'd do anything for me."

I just don't hear the reciprocity I find in other versions.

And my admittedly faulty memory is that there were other scenes that showed Valentin's treatment of his cellmate to be nothing but political cause-serving. My takeaway was that Latin leftism was a con job. I wish I had a copy of the libretto.

***

On the other hand, if Prince logs in, he will point out that the "kiss" of Aurora = death, which tilts things back toward Valentin's favor. Perhaps that's where you think I am blind.

[Fantod]

Posted: 4/11/15 at 11:29pm

The prologue on the OLC makes me extremely nervous, but I can't stop listening to it.

[jimmycurry01]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 1:06am

I have never seen a live production, but have listened to both cast recordings. Obviously I cannot comment on the stage performances, but on the recordings I have to say I prefer Vanessa Williams. I feel like a sinner for saying that, but she just exudes a dangerous sexiness on that recording that I feel Chita lacks. I realize this may have been different on stage, but if Chita had it live, I don't feel like she brought it to the recording studio.

[Fantod]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 1:19am

I don't think that's a particularly controversial opinion. Many critics who reviewed her like her more than Chita I believe, which is part of why the show was re-recorded with her in it.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 1:56am

While I find Chita and her lower keys more appealing on her recording (partly because I saw her, and it's by far the one I play more often even if I think the later one, produced by the brilliant Thomas Z. Shepherd is better in terms of how it presents the material,) keep in mind too that a lot of her appeal was her stage presence and particularly dancing.  I'm sure Vanessa's dancing was less emphasized (and I seem to recall Carol Lawrence was not too well regarded in the role.) 

 

And of course there's the whole kinda meta framework--Chita was a gay icon for theatre goers, Vanessa not really--especially at the time.

[CurtainsUpat8]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 2:04am

I saw it a SUNY Purchase and on Broadway. I am going to get into trouble here perhaps, but when Chita stepped in, I just thought she was too old for the role. There I've said it.
If we are talking about Rita Hayworth? I think she should be a Latina. But maybe Jennifer Lopez ... I remember Chita had limited dance and was out of breath often.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 4:42am

I actually remember Chita dancing a lot--but that was eons back and I was young   I have a bootleg of her in London (so pre-Broadway) and she has a LOT of choreography and seems very much in control--but that was relatively early in the run (and I believe Bebe did go on a number of times during the London run.)  Or maybe you saw her when she had a cold?  :P  Also, some of my impressions may be coloured by the fact that I was so disappointed when I saw her again in A Dancer's Life how very little full out dancing she did (which was silly of me considering her age, but...)

 

Curtain, do you remember your reaction between the two productions? 

Prince says he dropped the Rita comparison after Purchase--and that makes sense because she certainly was rarely styled exclusively like her--whereas in the Purchase pictures Lauren Mitchell was--costume and hair anyway, not ethnicity--styled like her.  (It's interesting that Stroman choreographed the Purchase production but not after--though Prince says it was justbecause they wanted an entirely fresh production team.)

Speaking of other Broadway Auroras, did anyone see Maria Conchita Alonso?

Updated On: 4/12/15 at 04:42 AM

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 8:44am

Seems to me I did see both Chita and Vanessa in the various Broadway casts (memories play tricks though). Heretically I gotta say that I'm in the Vanessa camp on both the live show and the recording too. Chita was not only older, she was frankly mannish in the part-- the fedora, man's tux, Louise Brooks bob, deep voice and cigarette holder all told us she was the most macho character onstage. Sure, I guess Lauren Bacall and Talulah Bankhead can both be called gay icons, but they don't seem to be what Molina would have had in mind for his Aurora. 

I thought Vanessa was at her very best in that role (she has never impressed me onstage as much since), and hers is the voice I hear when I hear the score. (I also love Brian Stokes Mitchell's Valentine, so it's a two-fer.)

 

[CurtainsUpat8]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 9:25am

It was so long ago, I don't remember that much about the Purchase production. I do remember I wrote a long letter to Hal Prince with what I thought would be fixes. I wish I had kept a copy.

I remember that I liked John Rubenstein very much. I thought Kevin Grey was ok, but not a perfect fit, and Lauren Mitchell was just too American looking for me.  I think the show changed quite a bit when it hit broadway. The overall look and feel  of it was darker

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 9:35am

And irony of ironies, another thread here mentioned Hal Prince being critical of Bob Fosse's CHICAGO for cribbing from Prince's own CABARET, but I'd say here's Prince (and Kander and Ebb) cribbing all over the place from their Weimar Germany show to create their Argentina show-- the vaudeville numbers commenting on real-life's horrors, the otherworldly m.c. with wisdom to impart, the coal-black view of human behavior at the show's center. The main difference was switching most of the genders (lead, m.c., most of the ensemble). 

[TalkinLoud]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 10:08am

I wonder what will become of that reading with Audra McDonald, Alan Cumming,and Steven Pasquale...

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 3:26pm

Thanks Curtains,

Hal Prince has mentioned that the bad reviews John Rubinstein got were what bugged him the most, as he felt he was one of the few things that worked.

"I remember that I liked John Rubenstein very much. I thought Kevin Grey was ok, but not a perfect fit, and Lauren Mitchell was just too American looking for me.  I think the show changed quite a bit when it hit broadway. The overall look and feel  of it was darker"

Judging from the bootleg, photos and all the reviews, it changed massively--visually it completely changed (ie all being set in a prison now,) etc.  I can think of few overhauls as major if we consider Purchase a try out.

Someone in a Tree--I mentioned that too somewhere in this thread--that I really do feel like Spider Woman was in many ways, not the least of all the concept Prince chose, a return to Cabaret.  The Aurora scenes work essentially like the "limbo" scenes in Cabaret (except this time Molina does interact with them--in Prince's Cabaret only Sally crossed between the "real" and limbo and that was just during the title song.)

[Robbie2]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 5:19pm

The one and only Spider Woman-Aurora in my eyes is CHITA RIVERA~

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZmpbUF_Ha0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woX1ZMYXkIY

 Opening Night Special of Kiss...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVyQ5po7YoY

 

Updated On: 4/12/15 at 05:19 PM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 6:18pm

Thanks for posting that special--I had seen it years ago and then it was missing from Youtube for a while.  The part around 33 min mark where the hostess talks about the other 7 Broadway and Off-Broadway plays about gays with Michael York and Robert Morse lol (Gaveston you'll enjoy Hal Prince talking about gays in theatre and Fred Ebb explaining how Molina is so sweet and loveable and funny that people will love him )

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 6:31pm

Well, if we're going to be honest about it, by the time she opened the show in L.A., I thought Miss Rivera was looking rather fragile. I was actually uncomfortable watching her climb the netting; she looked like she might lose her grip and fall at any moment.

As for borrowing a dramatic device from CABARET, the same team had already done so with ZORBA, back in the late 1960s. Pirandello (and then Thorton Wilder) had made the "emcee" device popular decades earlier. (There's an Italian term for such characters who narrate, comment on and also participate in the action. It's more specific than "narrator", but it escapes me at the moment.)

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 6:56pm

I mentioned Zorba way back   There is one difference--Aurora doesn't address the audience directly.  The Emcee did, The Leader in Zorba...sorta does (judging from the libretto's stage directions,) but not in quite the same way...  And Aurora far less so (I suppose since in Cabaret we could be the audience at the limbo cabaret, in Zorba, if not a part of the story circle, then onlookers at the Bouzouki Cafe eavesdropping on the story being told--but in Kiss it's a story for Valentin--)

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/12/15 at 7:46pm

I'm sure you're right, Eric, but American musical theater is so presentational by its very nature, the difference between the Emcee, the Storyteller and the Spider Woman isn't as stark as it would be in another genre.

Almost everybody in an American musical ends up addressing the audience, since that is the form's convention.

Granted, thanks to his love of Brecht, Prince plays with the convention more precisely, but every character sings directly to the audience in a Hammerstein or Porter musical.

[Brick]

Posted: 4/14/15 at 10:50am

Gaveston, you're analysis of the simplification (or simply, watering down) of the politics is so astute. I've been working towards a production, likely in 16-17 season, and that very thing has been bothering me about the show. The simplification of the politics, and even more so the way in which their relationship was so revised to become far less ambiguous than the book (which is even quite loving and very sexual), making it into a tale of sad gay man falling for the cunning straight man who is just using him, even if he perhaps feels a tad reluctant to do so.

It is less interesting, less political, and frankly, outdated.