Last Five Years, in reverse? — Page 2

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#26

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 6:27pm

Not saying either one is better, but remember that they are pretty much kids when they meet....meet, married, and divorce before 30. not exactly an uncommon thing. Speaking from experience, it is very hard to stay true to a committed relationship when growing individually so much. It is possible, but very hard and it means you have to grow together as well, and when all that stuff is going on, that can get put on the back burner.

BroadwayBoobs: I'll give all of you who weren't there a hint of who took the pictures ...it rhymes with shameless

SOMMS: I knew it was Tink!

#27

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 6:29pm

I dunno. Kenny stays faithful to Jaime even though that guy in Ohio wants him but can't have him. Jaime is just too self-centered.

#28

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 6:30pm

Even when things are peachy keen with Cathy and himself, Jamie's still interested in other girls. Like I said, my theory is that he rushed into the marriage too quickly and regrets not being able to play the field now that he's an accomplished writer (it's even said so, in "Moving Too Fast").

Also, we're never told how much Cathy whines about her career to Jamie. I think that she has a legitimate right to be upset about her situation at the time of "If I Didn't Believe in You," and I also suspect that part of her reluctance to attend is that Jamie is always schmoozing with some girl.

Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!

#29

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 6:33pm

Also, sometimes I get the feeling that people project Norbert Leo Butz onto Jamie; because they love the former, they love the latter.

See, I wouldn't doubt that I unintentionally do that, but it's not really because I love Norbert. It's just that I think he plays the part so well and so sympathetically that he EXUDES that sympathy when in fact it may not be there so much in the script itself. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yeah, Norbert's performance probably does inadvertantly make me feel for Jamie a lot more, but it's not because I'm such a huge Norbert FAN (in fact, as great as I think his talent is, I really don't obsess over him much at all) :) It's just I think his performance is probably more compassionate and sympathetic than the character itself is written to be. But hey, if a performance is legitimately good enough to make you feel a certain way about a character, that's pretty darn impressive in it of itself!

I don't need a life that's normal. That's way too far away. But something next to normal would be okay. Something next to normal is what I'd like to try. Close enough to normal to get by.

#30

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 6:35pm

i disagree that she has a valid reason to be upset during If I Didn't Believe In You" considering he's pretty much affirming his feelings to her the whole song. the fact that it becomes redundant at the ending proves that she won't just get over it and is clearly mirroring her low self-esteem into the greater picture of their relationship.

i enjoy that there's so many holes in the plot, though, as it allows you to sort of fill in your own portion and come up with your own conclusion to how things went down.

#31

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 6:37pm

It just seems to me like he's trying to placate her. Like I said, they're pretty words, but in the end he won't even go see her show.

snl89: Haha, I wasn't implying you or anyone specific because I don't know. It's just a feeling that I sometimes get when I run into hardcore Jamie fangirls. But I do agree that he's a very charismatic character, and I can see why Cathy would fall in love with him.

Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!

Updated On: 4/7/08 at 06:37 PM

#32

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 6:40pm

I think the show's biggest flaw is how uneven it is. Jamie is, to me, clearly the one who bears the brunt of the blame for the relationship's troubles. Even his "supportive" comments to Cathy are, ultimately, all about him and how she makes him feel ("If I Didn't Believe in You" is an outrageously selfish song). On the other hand, while she comes off looking "better," Cathy is a shell of a character compared to Jamie. She's like...a man's idea of what a woman in that situation would be like. I don't find myself relating to Cathy as a real person, a complete character, and she's pretty much defined by her situation. So Jamie might be the bad guy, but for whatever reason, his side of the story has more emotional resonance. I wish both the fault and the character development were more evenly appointed.

#33

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 6:43pm

I completely agree with you! The reason for the uneven-ness is probably that JRB knew what he was feeling, but not how his wife was feeling. I feel terribly sorry for Cathy, but probably more because of her situation than because of her personality etc.

Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!

Updated On: 4/7/08 at 06:43 PM

#34

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 6:51pm

As written, the show wouldn't work in reverse. Dramatically, Jamie's infidelity HAS to come at the end - you only get the full effect that the disintegration of the relationship has on Jamie by having Nobody Needs to Know where it is, and I think it would be difficult for him to retain sympathy if he starts off as a cheating bastard! At the start of the show as is Cathy is the victim and Jamie is seemingly wonderful; starting the show with one of them as a dickhead right out wouldn't make the show very balanced IMHO (notice how Cathy only gets one truly negative song about the relationship, See I'm Smiling, whereas Jamie has If I Didn't Believe In You AND Nobody Needs to Know - he'd take much longer to earn our sympathy than Cathy does as is, since A Part Of That is a much more upbeat (if cautionary) look at the relationship than IIDBIY).

Phew, I thought I'd lost interest in L5Y...

#35

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 6:52pm

Jamie is a ****and needs a good spanking... from me.

#36

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 6:55pm

Actually, I think that "A Miracle Would Happen" is also rather negative. When you consider it, Jamie really has a lot more negative songs than Cathy does. That, too, is indicative of the discrepancy between the two: Jamie believes that the relationship is pretty much shot, but Cathy believes that they can still work things out.

I'm sorry, can you tell that I was listening to the cast recording this morning on my drive to and from campus? Haha.

Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!

Updated On: 4/7/08 at 06:55 PM

#37

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 4/7/08 at 7:01pm

I think this discussion is FABULOUS but it is semi autobiographical (based on JRB's first marriage) and therefore I don't think we can really argue about changing the material or anything.

#38

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/20/08 at 7:22pm

I think the genius behind this show is the fact that it so perfectly captures real life relationships that one's opinion on who is to blame is always influenced by their personal experiences. Just like in real life, many relationships are much more complicated than "he was right, she was wrong" or vice versa. I recently came out of a 5 year relationship and have just began to notice how much I relate to Jamie (unsure about the relationship early on, feeling smothered by her need for attention, sticking with it anyway) and how much my ex reminds me of Cathy (feeling secondary in his life, needing her man despite her desire for independence, etc). And yet, I would still place the blame on Jamie. Instead of admitting that the relationship would never work for him and ending it for both their sake (even though Cathy didn't feel the same way), he cheats on her.

I would like to see a synopsis of the show put in chronological order...does anyone know where one might be (or do you think you could do it)?

#39

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/20/08 at 10:41pm

I have to admit that I'm guilty of rearranging the songs so that they alternate in chronological order (I swear I have a life, too... I was just really curious to see how it would turn out), though I never thought about putting it in reverse. When I did put things in chronological order, however, I found the whole thing to be a lot less compelling and, even knowing the songs and loving every single one of them, I started to tune them out.

I think it's fascinating that putting the music out of order brings out the uneven-ness of the characterizations. I think the only reason it wasn't overly apparent to me is because I've always felt that the structure of the story the way it is sets up Kathy to look like a victim in the beginning and to kind of villify Jaime (who, like someone said earlier, is still likeable because he's still at the more "happy" point in the relationship but is described by Kathy as being a real jerk). I think the beginning set up creates a kind of black and white moral scenario: according to Kathy, Jaime is clearly in the wrong because he ended things, and she is right because she's the one in pain and alone (and face it, Jaime can't exactly defend himself from where he is on the timeline-- especially in "Movin' Too Fast").

However, as the play progresses, their relationship becomes a lot more complicated, especially around "Schmuel Song" and "Summer in Ohio," when the idea emerges that Kathy is frustrated with her failed acting career. Jaime's success comes to him naturally, and I think that's why he never understands why it's so hard for Kathy or is able to sympathize with her when she has problems with his fame and the selfish indulgences that come with it. I've always detected a lot of jealousy in Kathy... to me, "Better Than That" and "Climbin' Uphill" are not necessarily songs of optimism or happiness, but ones of thinly veiled envy (not to mention "Part of That" and "Summer in Ohio".

While Jaime is definitely selfish in every way possible, Kathy isn't without her own demons... Sure, Jaime inflates his own ego in "If I Didn't Believe in You," but it's Kathy who may have needed that reassurance in the first place (like the way she uses Jaime's book as validation for her friend Richard and herself in "Summer in Ohio"). I think they both wanted their relationship to work so badly that they couldn't see that they wanted different things for themselves first. I think it reflects a kind of reality about relationships and the complexities that blur the lines of who is right or wrong and who is at fault.

#40

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/20/08 at 11:00pm

AHHAHAAHAH. Oh Kenny, we do want you and Jamie to end up together in the end. No matter how interested you become in the gay midget in ohio=)

And this is why we lurrve broadwayworld.

I don't know. While Cathy may seem slightly pathetic I find it hard to pick a favorite, really.
JRB makes them so human.
Which is why I think this show is so touching and successful.

#41

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/20/08 at 11:18pm

Would you mind posting the song order in chronological order? I've never been able to figure it out exactly.

I maintain that if I had been Cathy, I would have had my breaking point in that relationship long before she did. She may have been rather self-pitying, but Jamie was just arrogant and unbearable.

Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!

Updated On: 5/20/08 at 11:18 PM

#42

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/20/08 at 11:32pm

I did a chronological listing when I first joined about 3 years ago. I'll have to see if I can find it in a search.

ETA: This plot summary, which has the songs in what I consider their chronological order. Your opinion might differ on a few of them.

I made a CD once with the songs in chronological order, so I'll go through that song list and comment on what's going on in the relationship:

Jamie, a 24-year-old Jewish writer meets Cathy. They go on their first date (Goodbye Until Tomorrow). Jamie falls fast in love with Cathy, despite the fact that she's not Jewish and might disappoint his family's expectations (Shiksa Goddess). Cathy takes Jamie to meet her family and asks him to move in with her (I Can Do Better Than That). Meanwhile, Jamie's writing career is also taking off (Moving Too Fast). For Christmas, Jamie gets Cathy a watch and encourages her to take the time to fulfill her own dreams, which include an acting career (The Schmuel Song). Cathy starts auditioning but finds it harder than she expected (Climbing Uphill). Jamie proposes and they get married (The Next Ten Minutes), though Jamie starts to express his ambivalence about marriage almost immediately (A Miracle Would Happen). Cathy finally gets an acting job, but it's doing summer stock in the Midwest (A Summer in Ohio). Jamie's career continues to flourish, which is initially hard for Cathy (A Part of That), and she refuses to do the schmoozing at parties Jamie considers important, though he tries to reassure her (If I Didn't Believe in You). Cathy ends up spending a second summer in Ohio, and is devastated when Jamie comes to visit and informs her that he is only going to spend the afternoon with her (See I'm Smiling). She's probably right to be upset, because at home in NYC Jamie has been having an affair (Nobody Needs to Know). They break up (I Could Never Rescue You) and Cathy laments how Jamie has broken her heart (Still Hurting).

Updated On: 5/20/08 at 11:32 PM

#43

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/21/08 at 1:00am

Haha... that chronological synopsis is really impressive. It's better than anything I could have made up.

Anyway, my list was just about the same, although I did have "A Miracle Would Happen" between "Part of That" and "A Summer in Ohio." I figured that rather than Jaime showing his ambivalence right after their marriage in "A Miracle Would Happen," he was expressing his temptations being away from Kathy while she was doing summer stock.

#44

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/21/08 at 1:07am

Very impressive, yeah. I think Cathy had to be there during "A Miracle Would Happen" because he mentions Cathy coming right up to him when he's flirting with those girls.

Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!

#45

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/21/08 at 1:44am

And "Nobody Needs To Know" has to come before "See I'm Smiling" because Jaime tells his girlfriend that he has to go to Ohio and swear to Kathy that he never was with her. Which makes me think that he didn't want to stay in Ohio because he wanted to be with his new girlfriend

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention...I'm the good cop, he's the bad cop.

#46

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/21/08 at 2:34am

True, SporkGoddess... I think it was just the "I'll be there soon Kathy's" that threw me off. I just figured when he says he'll be there soon it was referring to how she says in "A Summer in Ohio" that she's waiting for him to visit. Plus, he says he's proud of her for doing what she never got to do before... which I figured was related to her getting to tour. Although, I suppose "I'll be there soon" could be him trying to get to one of her performances or out of his office. Kathy does have to be somewhat present in that song to catch him flirting.

Haha... I think the one thing trying to assemble everything in choronogical order proves is that there was a very specific reason/structure for the original.

#47

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/21/08 at 11:52am

Yes, Jamie didn't want to stay in Ohio because he wanted to be with the other girl. And Cathy guessed it exactly.

I listened to "See, I'm Smiling" numerous times yesterday. It's really a brilliant song.

Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!

#48

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/21/08 at 1:49pm

I remember in articles and interviews at the time of the show's NY run that not only is it based on the Brown's marriage and break-up, but that the ex-Mrs. Brown and her counsel asked for and got plot changes to the show since it was a little too close to home. In the regional tryouts for instance, the wife's name was originally the same as the ex-Mrs. Brown.

Were I to write a show about a prior relationship and the subsequent break-up, you're damn right I'd make myself a bit more sympathetic than the other person. Oh, my character who have flaws, but not really annoying ones like a sniffling whiner.

I remember as I watched it thinking his character was charming and hers was whiny.

I just hope she got some of his royalties.

"If my life weren't funny, it would just be true. And that would be unacceptable." --Carrie Fisher

#49

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/21/08 at 2:23pm

Okay I have to say how can you feel any sympathy for Jamie when he cheats on her. I mean he admits it and then tells his new girlfriend that he has to lie to his WIFE about it.

I know that it is a story but I had not sympathy for him the moment I heard that when I listened to it. It made me very disapointed with him.

"Whenever I get gloomy with the state of the world, I think about the arrivals gate at Heathrow Airport. General opinion's starting to make out that we live in a world of hatred and greed, but I don't see that. It seems to me that love is everywhere. Often it's not particularly dignified or newsworthy, but it's always there - fathers and sons, mothers and daughters, husbands and wives, boyfriends, girlfriends, old friends. When the planes hit the Twin Towers, as far as I know none of the phone calls from the people on board were messages of hate or revenge - they were all messages of love. If you look for it, I've got a sneaky feeling you'll find that love actually is all around."

#50

re: Last Five Years, in reverse?

Posted: 5/21/08 at 2:29pm

LOVE this show.

LOVE the way it is as it is.

I've never thought about it... in reverse.

I have a four day weekend coming up. Guess what SOME of my time will be spent thyinkking about?

"TO LOVE ANOTHER PERSON IS TO SEE THE FACE OF GOD"- LES MISERABLES--- "THERE'S A SPECIAL KIND OF PEOPLE KNOWN AS SHOW PEOPLE... WE'RE BORN EVERY NIGHT AT HALF HOUR CALL!"--- CURTAINS

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