Posted: 3/24/17 at 12:16pm
Helvizz, because of people like that it's entirely possible that you heard about the show that way, it's just that I hope you see what the show is really about once you see it.
Updated On: 3/24/17 at 12:16 PM
Posted: 3/24/17 at 12:24pm
There is some interesting name-calling from people here who don't want to see this "legendary" show attacked.
Part of this show's problem is that it sets itself up to be so much more substantial and significant than it is: fundamentally the creatives are being dishonest with themselves if they say 'Madame Butterfly' was a starting point; quite clearly it was a finishing point. There was never any chance that Cameron & co would ditch the tragic ending of the original- they had already shown their penchant for manipulative endings with 'Les Mis', and as a result, Kim was never to have the kind of options available to a Vietnamese girl in the Resistance War Against America- she simply had to die. But the social values of 'Madame Butterfly' could not simply transfer across to the later scenario.
Thus the pre-determined ending has always rung false with those who refuse to be carried along by a series of power ballads and a cheeky Vietnamese Fagin. Awareness of global politics has increased massively since 'Miss Saigon' first opened, thanks to internet and news channels, and I am not surprised that many reviews express anxiety about the show's creaky colonial world-view.
It's not fair to say it's a musical about a helicopter, but it's naive to think it really has anything profound to say about the plight of women caught in horrific modern warfare.
Posted: 3/24/17 at 12:28pm
LizzieCurry said: "LOVE this one.
http://www.vulture.com/2017/03/theater-review-why-are-we-in-miss-saigon.html
"
That's not a review. That's not about this show.
First he mentions some things, Jonathan Pryce's yellow face, wrong lyrics in the wedding ceremony, which have nothing to do with this revival, so why repeating it and looking for things that he doesn't like.
Then he starts some gibberish: "That they are Asian women does not improve the optics; at any rate, the show engages in the same double-dealing with its expropriation of Asian-ness. It says everything about the priorities of the authors", which does not make sense at all. Stay home if you don't like real life, history or context.
I think this person has not seen the show. If he did he would have said something about it.
"The sound is unspecific and the helicopter looks like a manatee" doesn't give me the impression he has seen it.
Maybe you should start a new thread: "Why I dislike every future show with a story line including an Asian character that's not completely to my liking, even though it's about history".
Or: "Why every Asian character should be a Cinderella story".
Updated On: 3/24/17 at 12:28 PM
Posted: 3/24/17 at 12:34pm
devonian makes excellent points; like Les Miserables, this show has all the political sensibility of a somewhat backwards 4 year-old-child - that is to say, none.
To equate the worlds of Madama Butterfly and Miss Saigon is morally naive. Japan was never a European colony, tossed, as Vietnam was, from the French to the Americans and abused by both. The lack of this world view from the musical makes it, intellectually and morally, little more than just another fluffy operetta, a la The Desert Song.
And speaking of morals, I'm always surprised at the adoring audience reaction to the song "The American Dream," given that it's nothing more than a paean to greed, materialism, sexism, etc. The Engineer is a morally repulsive character, he physically abuses Kim, he uses her and a child out of no love for them, but only to get what he wants, and yet the audience seems to just adore him. Now it's far from strange for American audiences to love manically id-driven characters, but to turn a blind eye to The Engineer's status as something more of a villain than hero strikes me as ... odd.
Posted: 3/24/17 at 12:46pm
devonian.t said: "
Part of this show's problem is that it sets itself up to be so much more substantial and significant than it is
Thus the pre-determined ending has always rung false with those who refuse to be carried along by a series of power ballads and a cheeky Vietnamese Fagin. Awareness of global politics has increased massively since 'Miss Saigon' first opened, thanks to internet and news channels, and I am not surprised that many reviews express anxiety about the show's creaky colonial world-view."
The significance of this show lies in other things. The personal choices of the characters in that era, situation and time frame. The ending is just a part of the much bigger picture, we are dealing with more journeys in the show, more characters and more personal choices and struggles.
The worst thing we can do is to treat this show with today's political awareness.
It would be very rude to make people believe the girls in that bar were treated decently. They were not.
And what if Kim did not die in the end and got her way? Would that make you happy? That the "victimized" character eventually wins? You only want Cinderella stories? Well, that's not what always happened in that time.
Updated On: 3/24/17 at 12:46 PM
Posted: 3/24/17 at 12:47pm
devonian.t said: "Thus the pre-determined ending has always rung false with those who refuse to be carried along by a series of power ballads and a cheeky Vietnamese Fagin. Awareness of global politics has increased massively since 'Miss Saigon' first opened, thanks to internet and news channels, and I am not surprised that many reviews express anxiety about the show's creaky colonial world-view."
A+
Posted: 3/24/17 at 12:55pm
devonian.t said: "It's not fair to say it's a musical about a helicopter, but it's naive to think it really has anything profound to say about the plight of women caught in horrific modern warfare."
It shows me they were real people with character and heart. That is profound to me.
That's all they are trying to do, because that's what this story is about.
Not about profound politically correct situations as perceived by 2017 eyes.
Posted: 3/24/17 at 12:58pm
"Not about profound politically correct situations as perceived by 2017 eyes."
There were many of us who were perfectly aware of the political situation in Vietnam while it was happening. 2017, my butt.
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:03pm
Good. So we agree that by no means situations and things that happened there during the war were politically correct. Let's not pretend they were in the show then, shall we?
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:09pm
Hmm. I thought I knew what you were getting at, but now I have no idea. Nor do I know how you're using the term "politically correct."
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:15pm
I am talking about these ridiculous complaints about Asian women not being treated right during the war or Kim not getting her way and winning in the end.
Updated On: 3/24/17 at 01:15 PM
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:19pm
I see nothing wrong with castigating a Broadway musical for not taking a moral stance on atrocities.
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:26pm
A thread about Miss Saigon that leads to a discussion of depiction of race... of course Dave19 shows up to object, albeit with a slightly new name.
Updated On: 3/24/17 at 01:26 PM
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:28pm
I had blocked Dave19 so long ago that I forgot about him. Glad I blocked his descendant pre-emptively!
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:30pm
Newintown, So you like to hide atrocities that happened? Why is that?
Telling a story about it is not taking a moral stance. It's showing it.
Faulting the show because you are confronted to realities is inappropriate.
What did you have in mind? The marines worshipping the girls and massaging their feet and pouring them champaigne and in the end Kim winning and waving the banner of victory? Like a good old Cinderella story. That might feel more "correct" to you, but I love seeing the political incorrectness of that time.
Updated On: 3/24/17 at 01:30 PM
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:32pm
Kad said: "A thread about Miss Saigon that leads to a discussion of depiction of race... of course Dave19 shows up to object, albeit with a slightly new name.
"
Yawn....
And what's your opinion on the matter?
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:34pm
LizzieCurry said: "I had blocked Dave19 so long ago that I forgot about him. Glad I blocked his descendant pre-emptively!
"
Last week you reacted on my post. But the blocking does not surprise me. You seem like a person that is very selective of what she wants to be confronted to and what not. Essentially the core of this discussion.
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:35pm
"Newintown, So you like to hide atrocities that happened? Why is that?"
Oh, the shoe finally drops. I get it. You're just being a silly troll, saying bizarro backwards things.
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:39pm
Tell me, what do you think of the people complaining about bad things that happened, shown in the show?
It's what I say all the time.
Can you explain what you would have liked to see instead?
Updated On: 3/24/17 at 01:39 PM
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:49pm
LizzieCurry said: "I had blocked Dave19 so long ago that I forgot about him. Glad I blocked his descendant pre-emptively!"
Same
Posted: 3/24/17 at 1:52pm
Blocking = Ostrich
Complainig about story lines that are not politically correct = Ostrich
Updated On: 3/24/17 at 01:52 PM
Posted: 3/24/17 at 2:05pm
So......Since nobody is able to tell what they would have liked to see instead (except from the bargirls being treated wonderfully and Kim staying alive, everybody happy and wonderful with a bird singing on their shoulder)........ I guess they actually don't really know what they want. Point taken.
Let's get back on topic and wait for some more reviews.
Updated On: 3/24/17 at 02:05 PM
Posted: 3/24/17 at 2:24pm
Dave28282 I would not prefer a happy ending; I would prefer not to have a contrived, un-earned ending.
Posted: 3/24/17 at 2:42pm
Dave just sent me a PM with the subject line "Miss Saigon Broadway." Nice try, Dave! Into the trash it went!
Posted: 3/24/17 at 4:02pm
Dave28282 said: "Newintown, So you like to hide atrocities that happened? Why is that?
Telling a story about it is not taking a moral stance. It's showing it.
Faulting the show because you are confronted to realities is inappropriate.
What did you have in mind? The marines worshipping the girls and massaging their feet and pouring them champaigne and in the end Kim winning and waving the banner of victory? Like a good old Cinderella story. That might feel more "correct" to you, but I love seeing the political incorrectness of that time.
"
You are posting as if Miss Saigon was based on a biography and that Kim, Chris and others were real people. It wasn't. It glosses over the horrors of war by using caraciatures of Asian men and Asian women. Chris directly tells Kim that her life, and ergo, the lives of all Vietnamese, have no value in Vietnam. This isn't about "political correctness" or whatever buzzword you are throwing around. There are many ways the writers of this show still could have made this show beautiful and impactful without buying into stereotypes. Put it this way, why did Kim have to be 17 years old? Why did she have to be a prostitute? Why did the comic relief of the show have to be a vile person who uses Kim? None of these plot points made the love story of Kim and Chris any stronger. Anyway, I don't hate Miss Saigon. I just accept that it is problematic.
