Next to Normal? — Page 3

Elphie, yes, they do avoid ever saying exactly what is wrong with the woman, the doctors are pretty clearly mis-diagnosing all over the place.

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I've never posted on these boards before, but my response to Next to Normal prompted me to see what others were saying about it. I feel I have to defend Roscoe who can't be bad if he likes Buster Keaton. I have never been as disappointed with a show as I was with Next to Normal. Brian d'Arcy James is one of my favorite actors and I had heard such great things about it that I was expecting to love it, but there was a lot wrong with this show. I think it's great if a show wants to deal with mental illness, but it was not done in the best way. As East Village pointed out, it started as a satire, but evolved into a melodrama. The show was all over the place. Also, I would much rather see a show that tackles bi-polar disorder in an honest way without relying on unnecessary plot twists. As someone who has dealt with bi-polar disorder in my family, I was not moved by this show at all. At a few points I was almost offended.

Sorry this post is all over the place, so I guess I'm just as bad as the show, but a few more points I wanted to address. Many people were mentioning Spring Awakening, a show which I personally loved. And it really has nothing to do with N2N aside from the cult following they both have and the rock music score. I will say that I loved the music of N2N, but hated the lyrics. The cast is extremely talented and I wish them the best of luck in whatever they do, but I expected more from this show.

East Villiage,

I am trying to understand. I guess I am struggling to figure out why one can't commit to the struggle AND generalize/exaggerate a bit to make a bigger point. Why are the two mutually exclusive?

Were you put off by the wild depiction of shock therapy? I admit they got kind of abstract and Tommy-ish, no surprise with Tom Kitt on board btw. Or was it that they didn't specify an illness and show exactly how THAT specifically would be treated?

I'm not sure I fully understand your objection.

For me, I don't really need them to tell me exactly down to the letter the REALISTIC treatment. I got that they were trying to make a statement that often patients aren't listened to, are misdiagnosed, over/mis-medicated, told by each doctor that they "know" exactly what to do...only to find out that they really don't know how it all works. It is not an infallible science, this mind chemistry. To me that statement is more valuable than being able to say for sure this is manic depression and this is textbook treatment of it.

And, I actually appreciated them going a little Tommy and abstract with the ECT. It was supposed to always be a rock opera-ish score so it made sense. It also served to lighten up up a dark subject a bit, while making a serious point in the lyrics.

And as far as the doctor and other "hallucination" scenes, I think it's a real struggle to convey such a thing on stage so they again went a little rock/tommy/abstract/fantasy...if those are the right words. I'm not sure how else they would have done that without making it a dour and plodding exceedingly dark show. It also served to keep the feel of her sort of hyper mania.

So, for me, I just don't see how those were bad or out of place choices. Though, I realize that it may not work for everyone.

I get you Elphie -- and that's essentially what I had to keep telling myself in order to forgive the show's weak points and just enjoy the emotional journey.

If this show was say like Tommy and dealing with surface and spectacle and quite a bit of fantasy then I'd buy what you're saying. But if you ask the audience to commit to a character's deeply personal struggle as well as the reality of this family's drama, then you can't turn around and through something totally fake at them.

As such, it felt like a wonderful drama was taking place on stage -- then suddenly the dentist from Little Shop showed up.


For the show's sake, I AM glad that they're hopefully going to do a bit of re-writing, and hopefully going to strengthen the show some in the aspects you just mentioned, because it seems like the people who did have a problem with it tended to feel the exact same way.


That said, I'm kind of with Elphie68 on this one- I don't quite understand personally why it CAN'T work to have a mixture of both fantasy and reality. I think that I might have a problem with it if the fantasy aspects of the show weren't all in Diana's head, but.. they are. So, for that reason, to me personally it works just fine. In fact, I really ENJOY the balance between reality and fantasy that the show currently has. I feel like if you go totally fantasy with it, it becomes and entirely different show and I wouldn't want that. And if you go totally reality, it's too heavy. The way it is, I feel that it works remarkably well, because you still have that over all sense of what is reality, and yet Diana's little "rockstar" hallucinations help to make the subject matter easier to swallow, while still allowing you to extend your disbelief as an audience member because she is hallucinating, and that's made clear.

So yeah, to sum up:
I tend to agree with Elphie, however if rewriting the show a bit will make it even better, and make more people inclined to love it as opposed to just thinking it's an interesting idea that could have been done better, I am ALL for that :)

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"What I meant was that I'm not sure her symptoms were meant to be a realistic portrayal of any particular disorder; "

Could be, and following that train of thought, it stands to reason that they were unable to provide a definitive diagnosis.

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SNL89...

That's what I was trying to say, albeit badly.

I'm sure further re-write might help. I'm just confused as to what the problem with it is. It's like knowing there is path but you don't know what direction to go to find it.

Musically the show is pretty tight. My one problem is the Perfect For You lyrics. The chorus is great, I just think they could do away with a lot of the environment talk. Shorten it.

For me, the acting is incredibly poignant.

So that leaves the story/book. And, as I said, I like how they have brought more of a balance. I understand FE was much darker. And, while I think the main problem people have with it is the depiction of the treatment (pills/therapy/ECT), I'm still not quite sure what people want. Do away with the whole Dr./Rockstar bit? Well, I tell ya, I think it gets very dry if you do that AND someone will need to suggest how you then show Diana's hallucinations. I thought it was a clever solution to that problematic piece of this story

In medical terms, the fact that Diana sees her son is a hallucination. But this isn't a medical documentary. And so while you can look at that side of it, you also need to consider it as a piece of theater. And so in dramatic terms, yes, I think you can consider him to be something of a "spirit," because of the way in which he's treated as a legitimate character with influence over the action.

ETA: Yes, Jane, absolutely. I figured that was implicit.

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Updated On: 3/4/08 at 05:08 PM

I'm sure further re-write might help. I'm just confused as to what the problem with it is. It's like knowing there is path but you don't know what direction to go to find it.

Musically the show is pretty tight. My one problem is the Perfect For You lyrics. The chorus is great, I just think they could do away with a lot of the environment talk. Shorten it.


First off, TOTALLY agree about Perfect for You. Like, the general idea of the song is necessary, but that is the one song that needs to be changed lyrically. So much of it is just... not too good right now. But other than that, I personally think the show is EXTREMELY tight musically. Maybe a coouple little lyric changes here and there, but other than that, the score is brilliant and wonderfully varied, and the lyrics are generally very clever and tight.

Secondly, that's EXACTLY the problem I've been encountering too. As I think about it, I know there are ways the show can improve, but I've had a REALLY hard time actually pinpointing just what it is they can do TO improve it. I forget who it was that I was discussing this with in a previous NtN related thread, but what I've basically concluded is that a lot of it probably comes back to Dr. Madden as a character. What I'm thinking is that, if they just make a few simple changes in the way Dr. Madden interacts with Diana and Dan, it could make him come off as a more pertinent, simpathetic character. As is, it almost kind of feels like Dr. Madden is more a plot device than an actual character, you know? The rest of the characters are all so nicely developed (especially Natalie, but the others too), but Dr. Madden just seems to be there simply as a symbol of the medical struggles that Diana encounters. I think that if they could find a way to make his character truly seem like a character who truly has a relationship with this family in his own right, it might help significantly to make the piece seem less "Little Shop/Tommy-esque". And that wouldn't mean taking away the "rock star" bits, because, like you said, it would be dry without them. But simply changing or adding little lines here and there to show that he is more than just "the symbol of what's wrong with today's pharmaceuticals", you know? Unfortunately, I'd worry that if they were going to do that, for time purposes, they'd need to CUT other parts. And frankly, the only part I'm willing to give up is Perfect for You. If they cut any other songs, I will be very upset. haha. So like... if I were part of the creative team, I'd opt to just make it a little bit longer and flesh out Dr. Madden's part a bit.

Plus I would add "I've Been" back in, but that's my own personal thing because I adore the song and think it adds a really lovely aspect of Dan's character that we don't so much get as is. It's not necessary, but... I'm a big advocate for putting that song back in is all I'm sayin' :P


So yeah, those are my thoughts. But again, I've had the same problem, because it is REALLY hard to pinpoint exactly what can be done to make it the best piece it can possibly be. I do not envy the creative team, that's for sure. But I do TRUST them, because- heck, look how far they've come since when it was Feeling Electric! I listen to Feeling Electric now and I just have to laugh! I'm like "WOW, I actually thought this was that good!?" NtN is SOOO much better.

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Updated On: 3/4/08 at 05:22 PM

Emcee, Oh I agree, I was replying to snl's equally engaging post.

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SNL89,

OMG...I might die if they change Dr. Madden and that means like cutting "My Psychopharmacologist and I". So, I am trepedatious of that route.

I mean the Dr. is pretty much a symbol. That's why Asa plays all of them. Personally, I'm ok with that. He is there to illustrate the issues with the medical treatment. The first one is all about it being chemical...so, with the pills. The next Dr that we see most, Madden, does all the talk and hypno stuff, then the ECT. It's beyond me what more they could or should do with him. I suppose we could see more of the therapy session or more discussion with Dan leading up to the ECT.

lol...I guess if I knew...I'd be writing for BWay!

Getting into this late having just gotten in from seeing it again. :) But...

*spoilers in case anyone who hasn't seen it has read this far*

It's only a hallucination if he's not there. He could well be there as a ghost/spirit and Diana is just sensitive enough to see him while Dan isn't...at least until the end when something in him breaks with Diana leaving.

I have to say, tonight Alice was absolutely heartbreaking at that moment just before Diana walks out. I hadn't really paid much attention to her at that moment before ~ always focusing on Brian as Dan just kind of sits there. Tonight I looked over at Alice and the look she had on her face when she was standing there that moment right before leaving when he's not looking at her. It was total "(Expletive I cannot say on the board) LOOK AT ME!!!!! DO SOMETHING!!" Totally made me lose it.

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The 16th

Mmmhmm. I know what you mean.

SOOOO good.

edited for more info: I completely agree that perhaps Dan couldn't see him until the break. I also believe that there are spirits around us who will let themselves be seen when/if we need them. Diana, in making that attempt to LIVE, doesn't need him at the moment. But Dan, whose pretty primary purpose was trying to hold Diana together, is left alone and all of a sudden he doesn't really have anyone to focus on (Natalie to a degree, but she's well on her way to grown) and so that leaves him open and vulnerable.

I definitely see it working that way.

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Updated On: 3/4/08 at 10:50 PM