OLIVER! (the movie musical) — Page 2

For fans of the movie, you can find it for free on Comcast On Demend. It can be tough to find, but if you go to free movies - preferred collections - hd - all movies - n-z, it's in there.

While I agree that the movie far exceeded the stage production, the one song I would have included would have been My Name. Believe it or not, this decision is based upon seeing our local high school production a couple of years ago. It was done very well by the young actor, and elevated As Long As He Needs Me.

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"it's the best dubbing job (bar none, including all of Marni's work) that I've ever seen. Even Marni Nixon can't match the vowel placement to the lips that well. And if yours isn't lining up, you might have a sync issue with your equipment. Mine lines up perfectly, but even more astounding is the vowel placement (i.e., shape of the vowels on the mouth), not the timing. Not one slip-up. To think that a young girl would be able to do that so impeccably is hard to believe."

**But Marni Nixon never lip-synched. People lip-synched >to< her tracks, and she post-dubbed Natalie Wood, but that's entirely different. Lip-synching has been done expertly by many actors over the decades (including many non-singers) and by many children, including Jack WIld in Oliver. I see nothing exceptional in Lester's lip-synching.

"... and as for singing "live" and recording while on set, it's done more often than you think. Especially during emotional scenes or when improvisational vocal timing becomes an issue. It's definitely not the norm, but a lot more people than Rex Harrison have sung various songs or phrases live while the cameras rolled."

**As a formrr film editor, and someone who has had somewhat of an obsession with dubbing over the last five years (see all my clips restoring the voices of those who were dubbed), I'm well aware of the few times when live set singing was done (I eat them up): one number in "Calamity Jane," the reprise of "Maybe" in "Annie," a couple of Bette Midler's humbers in "Gypsy," and the opening to "My Man" in "Funny GIrl" come to mind, among others.

But all of those required real pros, and were rare exceptions: a playback problem led to the need for the "Annie" number (even then Aileen Quinn actually recorded a playback track a cappella on set and then lip-synched to it), Bette had to be talked into attempting it, and Barbra pleaded with William Wyler to allow her to attempt it.

The point is that on-set singing is extremely rare - I see no reaosn why it would be done for "Where Is Love?" especially with a completely untrained singer.

I have little doubt that Lester was dubbed. I just don't see someone as respected and professional as Johnny Green lying about that. Why would he?

Updated On: 7/29/11 at 10:25 AM

Elaine Paige is in this movie!

"**But Marni Nixon never lip-synched. People lip-synched >to< her tracks, and she post-dubbed Natalie Wood, but that's entirely different."

First, I never said Marni lip-synced anything, I said she matched the vowel placements of the actors (which she did). Second, Marni only dubbed the traditional way with one performer, with her pre-recording all tracks for Deborah Kerr in The King and I and An Affair to Remember. That was the only time someone lip-synced >to< her tracks, as you say.

In all her other famous instances, Marni was called in AFTER the film had been shot and the original vocal tracks had been recorded and had to match the lip movements and synchronize hers to the actress's. No, she wasn't lip-syncing (meaning she was the actress on screen mouthing to someone else's voice--come on I didn't say that!), but she was matching their pre-filmed work after the fact. That included Natalie Wood, as you mentioned, but also Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady and Marilyn Monroe for the opening section of Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend (the coloratura part) in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes.

As for Johnny Green waiting so long to tell the world that his daughter did the singing? Okay. He has announced that she did it. His own daughter. Even though two boys were also hired to do it, so he also says. And even though the voice on the soundtrack sounds nothing like a little girl's voice. And all the vowels are matched perfectly .. by a child on screen who Green also says had no sense of rhythm whatsoever. Yet Lester manages to match all the prerecorded vowels and phrasing perfectly, while crying on camera, at the age of 9.

I have trouble believing any of that.

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Updated On: 7/29/11 at 01:32 PM

I too have seen Johnny Green go on record saying his daughter dubbed the songs. There was also a special shown on a British TV show a few Christmases ago that staged all the main musical numbers and did several interviews with the cast. In the interview Mark Lester himself acknowledges that he could not sing.

I also remember seeing this movie for the first time when I was a little kid, and asking my grandma why Oliver's singing sounded like a little girl instead of a boy. I was sure it was a girl's voice then, and I am inclined to believe it still.

None of that stops this from being a fantastic movie musical. The production design is beautiful. The acting is fantastic, and the screen play is flawless.

AND being best friends with Michael Jackson.

I LOVE Shani Wallis!!!!! And this film.

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"In all her other famous instances, Marni was called in AFTER the film had been shot and the original vocal tracks had been recorded and had to match the lip movements and synchronize hers to the actress's. No, she wasn't lip-syncing (meaning she was the actress on screen mouthing to someone else's voice--come on I didn't say that!), but she was matching their pre-filmed work after the fact. That included Natalie Wood, as you mentioned, but also Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady and Marilyn Monroe for the opening section of Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend (the coloratura part) in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes."

I've met Marni (I gave her a DVD of the blend of her and Natalie that was used during the filming of WSS) and know her biographer, so I'm aware of all this. My point was that post dubbing is entirely different from lip-synching - two completely different skills. Marni is a master at the former, but many performers have been able to do the latter surprisingly well.

Personally, I think Judy was the best. She would tell the audio engineer on set to crank up the playback volume full blast, and then she would top it. That's why her lip-synch is so good - you're seeing a full, flat-out performance, even though we can't hear the on-set sound. I would love to be able to hear what that sounded like!

Part of my original issue with OLIVER! is that I wanted the entire film to be what "Boy for Sale" was, in mood and atmosphere. Like I said in my far earlier post, I've come to love it for what it is, not what it isn't. I need to dig out the DVD and watch it on the HDTV.

Since Elaine Paige is still Four Foot Nuttin', I'm sure she plays the tiniest urchin.

Onna White was the screen's greatest choreographer, imo. I wishe she had done more. She had to decline HALF A SIXPENCE, because she was working on OLIVER!

Best12Bars mentions the great voice that Harry Secombe has playing Mr. Bumble. Although he is not at all well known in the United States, he is very popular in England, his native country. I believe he has been in the English musical PICKWICK, of Charles Dickens fame. I have a CD set of English hymns and Secombe is prominently heard on the recording. He does indeed have an impressive voice. His physical demeanor is very Dickensian.

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Green said that Lester was completely tone deaf and could not sing a note. They tested several boys to dubb Lester's voice, but their voices did not match with Lester's speaking voice. They were working on the looping when Green's daughter, who was around 19 or 20 at the time, so she was NOT a "little girl", was found to be a perfect match for Lester's voice. And that is why she was used.