OLIVER! (the movie musical)- Page 2

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 7:52am

I wonder if there's a plan for a Blu-ray release. Hope so! But I think the film needs a good restoration for HD first. Maybe Sony's done that already. Don't know.

But my DVD looks pretty dang good, even on a 60-inch TV, so you can't beat the $3 price!

[madbrian]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 8:13am

For fans of the movie, you can find it for free on Comcast On Demend. It can be tough to find, but if you go to free movies - preferred collections - hd - all movies - n-z, it's in there.

While I agree that the movie far exceeded the stage production, the one song I would have included would have been My Name. Believe it or not, this decision is based upon seeing our local high school production a couple of years ago. It was done very well by the young actor, and elevated As Long As He Needs Me.

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 8:30am

Oliver Reed could have sung it, too. He does his own singing in the movie "Tommy," and it's certainly good enough for Bill Sykes. It was a creative decision to cut it.

I think the reason it works so well without the song is that it keeps him more of a mystery. We don't really know who Sykes is or what he's thinking. We can only guess what his life must be like. And hearing the main villain sing an ego-filled song about how he watches people tremble at the mention of his name and how his biceps are big enough to kill people ... kinda lessens the danger for me.

Updated On: 7/29/11 at 08:30 AM

[marknyc]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 10:25am

"it's the best dubbing job (bar none, including all of Marni's work) that I've ever seen. Even Marni Nixon can't match the vowel placement to the lips that well. And if yours isn't lining up, you might have a sync issue with your equipment. Mine lines up perfectly, but even more astounding is the vowel placement (i.e., shape of the vowels on the mouth), not the timing. Not one slip-up. To think that a young girl would be able to do that so impeccably is hard to believe."

**But Marni Nixon never lip-synched. People lip-synched >to< her tracks, and she post-dubbed Natalie Wood, but that's entirely different. Lip-synching has been done expertly by many actors over the decades (including many non-singers) and by many children, including Jack WIld in Oliver. I see nothing exceptional in Lester's lip-synching.

"... and as for singing "live" and recording while on set, it's done more often than you think. Especially during emotional scenes or when improvisational vocal timing becomes an issue. It's definitely not the norm, but a lot more people than Rex Harrison have sung various songs or phrases live while the cameras rolled."

**As a formrr film editor, and someone who has had somewhat of an obsession with dubbing over the last five years (see all my clips restoring the voices of those who were dubbed), I'm well aware of the few times when live set singing was done (I eat them up): one number in "Calamity Jane," the reprise of "Maybe" in "Annie," a couple of Bette Midler's humbers in "Gypsy," and the opening to "My Man" in "Funny GIrl" come to mind, among others.

But all of those required real pros, and were rare exceptions: a playback problem led to the need for the "Annie" number (even then Aileen Quinn actually recorded a playback track a cappella on set and then lip-synched to it), Bette had to be talked into attempting it, and Barbra pleaded with William Wyler to allow her to attempt it.

The point is that on-set singing is extremely rare - I see no reaosn why it would be done for "Where Is Love?" especially with a completely untrained singer.

I have little doubt that Lester was dubbed. I just don't see someone as respected and professional as Johnny Green lying about that. Why would he?


Updated On: 7/29/11 at 10:25 AM

[eatlasagna]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 12:24pm

OK.. so I had never seen this movie before and I have always wanted to... I guess I was just lazy... and I netflixed it and started watching it last night.. but only the first hour (had to leave so i will finish it later) but from that first hour I absolutely fell in love with the movie! i think i smiled several times in that first hour!!! and that's rare for me to do! LOVE the kids playing Artful Dodger and Oliver!

and something i just loved... after the big number Consider Yourself and the whole town is dancing at the end... I love how it ends with them just going back to their daily business... it just seemed a great transition... i've seen it done in other musicals and it looks awkward...

Looking forward to finishing it tonight

[broadwaybabytn]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 1:14pm

Elaine Paige is in this movie!

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 1:26pm

^ I never realized that, but you're right!

Fun fact!

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 1:32pm

"**But Marni Nixon never lip-synched. People lip-synched >to< her tracks, and she post-dubbed Natalie Wood, but that's entirely different."

First, I never said Marni lip-synced anything, I said she matched the vowel placements of the actors (which she did). Second, Marni only dubbed the traditional way with one performer, with her pre-recording all tracks for Deborah Kerr in The King and I and An Affair to Remember. That was the only time someone lip-synced >to< her tracks, as you say.

In all her other famous instances, Marni was called in AFTER the film had been shot and the original vocal tracks had been recorded and had to match the lip movements and synchronize hers to the actress's. No, she wasn't lip-syncing (meaning she was the actress on screen mouthing to someone else's voice--come on I didn't say that!), but she was matching their pre-filmed work after the fact. That included Natalie Wood, as you mentioned, but also Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady and Marilyn Monroe for the opening section of Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend (the coloratura part) in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes.

As for Johnny Green waiting so long to tell the world that his daughter did the singing? Okay. He has announced that she did it. His own daughter. Even though two boys were also hired to do it, so he also says. And even though the voice on the soundtrack sounds nothing like a little girl's voice. And all the vowels are matched perfectly .. by a child on screen who Green also says had no sense of rhythm whatsoever. Yet Lester manages to match all the prerecorded vowels and phrasing perfectly, while crying on camera, at the age of 9.

I have trouble believing any of that.

Updated On: 7/29/11 at 01:32 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 1:36pm

I just Googled Elaine Paige and it says she was an urchin in the movie. LOL She was also 20 years old when it came out .. .so she was a "seasoned urchin," I guess.

She's probably somewhere in those giant numbers: Consider Yourself, and Who Will Buy?

I'd love it if someone can point her out.

[jimmycurry01]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 2:09pm

I too have seen Johnny Green go on record saying his daughter dubbed the songs. There was also a special shown on a British TV show a few Christmases ago that staged all the main musical numbers and did several interviews with the cast. In the interview Mark Lester himself acknowledges that he could not sing.

I also remember seeing this movie for the first time when I was a little kid, and asking my grandma why Oliver's singing sounded like a little girl instead of a boy. I was sure it was a girl's voice then, and I am inclined to believe it still.

None of that stops this from being a fantastic movie musical. The production design is beautiful. The acting is fantastic, and the screen play is flawless.

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 2:20pm

Then he gets the award for being the best lip-syncer in cinema history ... while crying on cue in closeups at the age of 9, no less.

Updated On: 7/29/11 at 02:20 PM

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 2:28pm

AND being best friends with Michael Jackson.

I LOVE Shani Wallis!!!!! And this film.

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 2:31pm

Do we really think Lester is Jackson's babydaddy?

Maybe it was really Johnny Green's daughter!

Shani rules! By the way, someone you don't hear much praise for vocally, and he knocks my socks off, is Harry Secombe as Mr. Bumble! When he sings those high notes in Boy For Sale, I get chills. I wonder what he would have done with Beadle Bamford in Sweeney Todd. That's one hell of a set of pipes.

Updated On: 7/29/11 at 02:31 PM

[marknyc]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 3:54pm

"In all her other famous instances, Marni was called in AFTER the film had been shot and the original vocal tracks had been recorded and had to match the lip movements and synchronize hers to the actress's. No, she wasn't lip-syncing (meaning she was the actress on screen mouthing to someone else's voice--come on I didn't say that!), but she was matching their pre-filmed work after the fact. That included Natalie Wood, as you mentioned, but also Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady and Marilyn Monroe for the opening section of Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend (the coloratura part) in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes."

I've met Marni (I gave her a DVD of the blend of her and Natalie that was used during the filming of WSS) and know her biographer, so I'm aware of all this. My point was that post dubbing is entirely different from lip-synching - two completely different skills. Marni is a master at the former, but many performers have been able to do the latter surprisingly well.

Personally, I think Judy was the best. She would tell the audio engineer on set to crank up the playback volume full blast, and then she would top it. That's why her lip-synch is so good - you're seeing a full, flat-out performance, even though we can't hear the on-set sound. I would love to be able to hear what that sounded like!

[sing_dance_love]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 8:00pm

Can we talk about how phenomenal "Who Will Buy?" is in the film version!?

One of my favorite musical numbers on film ever. It's so thrilling!

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 8:38pm

Part of my original issue with OLIVER! is that I wanted the entire film to be what "Boy for Sale" was, in mood and atmosphere. Like I said in my far earlier post, I've come to love it for what it is, not what it isn't. I need to dig out the DVD and watch it on the HDTV.

[best12bars]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 9:14pm

"Part of my original issue with OLIVER! is that I wanted the entire film to be what "Boy for Sale" was, in mood and atmosphere."

GOD, that would be dreary! It's fine for an episode and part of the adventure, but if the entire movie was like that I think I'd slit my wrists ... or fall asleep ... or fall asleep slitting my wrists. Ugh. I think one of the best things about Oliver! is how the story and the mood shift and twist and turn. From sad, to depressing, to lighthearted, to humorous, to somber, to frightening. I love all the different levels.

As for Who Will Buy? I think it's a marvel of staging and timing. So much going on, and it manages to feel both planned and improvised all at once. Onna White deserved her special Oscar for choreography. And that giant outdoor Georgian set is incredible.

No matter how many times I've seen it, I always get nervous (as silly as that sounds) when the big marching band comes around the corner while everything else is going on, and the drum major throws his giant baton in the air. I keep thinking, "what if he drops it?" That would take another 30 minutes to go back and reset everyone into their starting positions. How much pressure is that?!

Updated On: 7/30/11 at 09:14 PM

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 7/29/11 at 9:38pm

Since Elaine Paige is still Four Foot Nuttin', I'm sure she plays the tiniest urchin.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 7/30/11 at 10:33am

OLIVER! is a really beautifully made film. I don't watch it too often but when I do sit down and commit myself to watching I am always impressed with everything that went into it. It is really impressive and that score is just classic.

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 7/30/11 at 10:42am

Onna White was the screen's greatest choreographer, imo. I wishe she had done more. She had to decline HALF A SIXPENCE, because she was working on OLIVER!

[canmark]

Posted: 7/30/11 at 10:57am

I love Oliver! too. I have it on VHS and DVD (and the soundtrack CD) and try to watch bits when it comes on TV. I have seen the movie many, many times, but somehow have never seen a stage version. As has been mentioned, great performances all around, particularly Ron Moody as Fagin (Reviewing the Situation is fab), Shanni Wallis as Nancy and Jack Wild as Dodger. I liked Mr. & Mrs. Bumble, too. Mark Lester's Oliver was appropriately sweet and innocent, but of course didn't have the flair of Dodger, who is so appealing. I'm glad to hear that a Bill Sykes song was cut from the film. Sykes is a brooding menace (played so well by Oliver Reed) and we should be justly afraid of him. He should not be singing. And, as others have said, the film does a good job of suggesting the dark realism of the gritty life these people faced, while at the same time giving us glorious production numbers (like Who Will Buy and Consider Yourself).

Updated On: 7/30/11 at 10:57 AM

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 7/30/11 at 1:36pm

Best12Bars mentions the great voice that Harry Secombe has playing Mr. Bumble. Although he is not at all well known in the United States, he is very popular in England, his native country. I believe he has been in the English musical PICKWICK, of Charles Dickens fame. I have a CD set of English hymns and Secombe is prominently heard on the recording. He does indeed have an impressive voice. His physical demeanor is very Dickensian.

[justafan2]

Posted: 7/30/11 at 2:50pm

Tom Panko was the assistant choreographer---very good talent.
Updated On: 7/30/11 at 02:50 PM

[mikey2573]

Posted: 8/2/11 at 12:02am

Green said that Lester was completely tone deaf and could not sing a note. They tested several boys to dubb Lester's voice, but their voices did not match with Lester's speaking voice. They were working on the looping when Green's daughter, who was around 19 or 20 at the time, so she was NOT a "little girl", was found to be a perfect match for Lester's voice. And that is why she was used.

[mikey2573]

Posted: 8/2/11 at 12:08am

Elaine Page is in the number Consider Yourself. She can be seen at the very end of the number, when they are all marching in place swinging their arms. She is right in the front and next to Dodger. THere was a special on the BBC called OLIVER! Where are they now? (or something like that) where they had a cast reunion. The special interviewed Paige and then they showed the end of CONSIDER YOURSELF with a highlighted bubble over Paige so you could see her.