Philosophical Question about Kiss of the Spider Woman (Possible spoilers!)

I don't know actually but I do urge people in the area to go see it. Saw it this past weekend and it was AMAZING.

http://tapeworthy.blogspot.com/2008/04/making-out-with-signature-theatre-kiss.html

The way I saw their relationship was that it developed into some sort of deep friendship bond/love that was beyond any labels and in a way a means for survival (as in, the yearning for connection and finding it in Molina let Valentin open himself up to them together because it was what he needed/helped him find hope/survive). Uh yeah? no?

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Updated On: 4/16/08 at 10:40 AM

Yeah, I'd thought something similar. Actually, this show/story went a long way towards convincing me of the futility of labels for emotions (and, by extension, people). They just become too complex for one simple term.

But I'm still intrigued by different people's perspectives into the motivations of the characters...

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Maybe because I'm straight, I never saw Valentin as having ANY feelings for Molina other than as friends. Before he asks Molina to do him a favor in calling Marta, he is using him - plain and simple: "He'd do anything for me, I can tell, he'd do anything for me, I know him well. If we kiss before he goes he'll make that call..." Valentin is thinking of his cause here - there is NOTHING there that suggests anything more. When Molina returns and keeps his word to Valentin, I think Valentin finds a respect for Molina that wasn't there before - he may even regard him as human for the first time really - but I never saw there being anything more than that from Valentin's perspective.

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I think that lyric can read in a number of different ways.

Rather than seeing it as a way of getting him to do something through seduction, I felt that Valentin knows that "if we touch..he'll make that call" and feels the weight of Molina's feelings for him. Maybe he's never known anyone who would risk their life just so that Valentin will be affectionate. I felt he was recognizing that Molina loved him, and his ideas about gay men are changing because it's not all just camp, it's about real affection.

Rather than seeing it as a way of getting him to do something through seduction, I felt that Valentin knows that "if we touch..he'll make that call" and feels the weight of Molina's feelings for him.

I agree with this. It certainly depends on how the actor plays it, but considering how homophobic Valentin starts out, he wouldn't have gone so far as to have sex with Molina solely for purposes of manipulation. If he were that obsessed with his cause, he wouldn't be willing to sacrifice the cause for Molina in the end- especially after sacrificing many of his comrades throughout the show, regardless of his respect for them.

Valentin is shown to be affectionate for Molina earlier than when he's about to be killed. Not necessarily "romantic" affection, but definitely different than the relationship of "normal" cell mates. The progression of their relationship reminded me of Beecher and Keller on Oz.

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I don't think it's quite that cut-and-dry, Gothampc. If he were only using Molina throughout, he wouldn't give Molina his blessing to talk at the end, and he wouldn't be "crying out convulsively" (as McNally puts it) when his actions get Molina killed. His emotions and motives are unclear-- probably less clear than Molina's-- and that's what makes the show so interesting to discuss.

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to continue from Tesse, especially in this Signature production. Ive never seen it before but hearing the recordings I never got that much from it but seeing it, they really played it across the emotions and reasons which is why it worked so powerfully.

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I definitely think that he's just using him. I think he likes him as a friend, but he still seems to only be thinking of Marta even at the end. His feelings at the end are mainly guilt and probably regret for what he did to Molina.

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Towards the end of the show Valentin says to Molina:
I want you to promise me something. I want you to promise me you'll never let anyone humiliate you ever again.
It's this line that causes Molina to finally agree to deliver Valentin's message.

Morosco-- I thought it was what happens right after that line that convinces him.

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This isn't going to make me popular on this board, I know, but I've been thinking about this question a lot today, and I REALLY think that you are reading into the play too much if you think that Valentin has ANY sort of sexual or homo-erotic (for lack of a better word) feeling for Molina. There is NOTHING in the play (and I'm going only on that since I haven't seen the movie or read the book) that indicates ANY homosexual leanings for Valentin. The ENTIRE play we're being shown how all he cares about is his cause.

Why, then, would a straight Valentin suddenly "fall" for Molina?
Valentin is NEVER shown to have even so much as a doubt about his sexuality (My First Woman, his love for Marta...). A character who has been set up as such simply doesn't change because it's convenient to the plot unless the writing is really bad.

Let me clarify: a "straight" man can fall for another man, of course it happens, but not so abruptly, and not at the INCREDIBLY convenient time when said man can use the relationship to do something to further the one thing we as an audience have been shown is his singular driving force and primary characteristic. It would be pretty crappy writing to suddenly have Valentin actually develop any feelings for Molina at that time. Only when Molina returns and Valentin sees what he did for him does Valentin even RESPECT him, and maybe consider him a friend. There is simply no WAY that he has developed anything more than platonic feelings for him.

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There is NOTHING in the play (and I'm going only on that since I haven't seen the movie or read the book) that indicates ANY homosexual leanings for Valentin.
There's a difference between "homosexual leanings" and affection. I agree with BK; your view of sexuality is extremely narrow-minded.

The ENTIRE play we're being shown how all he cares about is his cause.
Why, then, would Valentin suddenly give up on his cause so Molina won't be killed?

a "straight" man can fall for another man, of course it happens, but not so abruptly
Valentin and Molina spend months alone together in a confined jail cell with very little outside contact. How is that "abrupt"?


They would talk about how "straight" they are, but who are they really trying to convince? I believe the term is overcompensation.
Re-read jasonf's posts on this thread, heh.

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