Philosophical Question about Kiss of the Spider Woman (Possible spoilers!)- Page 3

[Tesse]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 3:49pm

I'd have to argue with that, orangeskittles. When Molina tells Valentin about Gabriel, he's lying and perpetuating his fantasy. When he goes to visit Gabriel, he asks, "Why didn't you write me?," acknowledging that the whole "Gabriel's Letter" song was a fiction. He's not oblivious per se, just willfully blind.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 4:07pm

I have a hard time buying into the idea that the story is from Molina's perspective and, therefore, we can't trust it. You could argue that it is entirely from his POV, but it doesn't follow that he's so biased as to give us no real idea of Valentin's objective actions. I don't think we have any evidence that his interactions with Valentin are a part of his fantasy life and presented to us with the same filter of wish-fulfillment as his fantasies of Aurora are. The lines between "fantasy" and "reality" might be blurred (and that's where you could argue that a magical realism element comes in), but there's enough delineation between the two that I find it extremely questionable to write off Molina's perspective on actual events as being totally unreliable. For example, we hear Valentin's internal debate over whether to seduce Molina, including his consideration of it as a means to an end....would we hear that if Molina's bias was so all-encompassing as to idealize or project his wishes onto the situation?

Does that mean that Valentin actually reciprocates Molina's feelings? Not necessarily. It's true that we can only surmise what he's thinking or feeling based on his behavior. But I don't think there's ample evidence to say that, if one thinks based on interpretation of the piece that he has romantic feelings for Molina, it must be just because we're seeing from Molina's biased perspective. If that were true, that would seriously hinder, like, ALL literary analysis of works told from a first-person or third-person limited perspective. Again, we're not given enough evidence that Molina is that biased in perspective.

Molina may want there to be something there (and maybe many homosexual audience members would also), but it's WAY too much of a stretch for me to think that he would develop actualy homosexual FEELINGS for Molina at that time. Might he have gone so far as to have sex with him? Yes. I don't argue that. But I simply do not buy that he has actual feelings for him, that, for example, were they suddenly put out of the jail cell, would even in the slightest make him consider a relationship with Molina at all.

I'm not even sure where to begin. "and maybe many homosexual audience members" want there to be something there, so therefore they are reading into the piece because they're biased? I think it equally, if not more likely given your tone throughout this discussion, that you are reading it with the biased perspective that there should not, cannot be any reciprocation on Valentin's part because he's straight. If people see it, they're projecting because they're gay? I wouldn't have ventured to say that you saw it your way because you're straight, except now it's clear that you're fine with (incorrectly) drawing that divide.

And that last part? If he were out of jail and in the real world, there are a lot of reasons besides lack of affection that Valentin wouldn't be with Molina -- one of which being the societal stigma against homosexuality. The fact that they wouldn't be together outside of those circumstances (no, they wouldn't) doesn't mean that real feelings haven't developed within the confines of the situation. I don't think that anyone has said that Valentin and Molina were "meant to be" or a great love, because that clearly isn't the case. I don't understand how you draw such rigid lines with sexuality and emotional involvement. No one has even said that Valentin is gay! Just that, even though he isn't, it's possible that he has developed romantic and/or sexual feelings for his cellmate and might not just be manipulating him. You can have another perspective for sure, but don't be so judgmental towards others. Updated On: 4/17/08 at 04:07 PM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 4:15pm

Oblivious wasn't the right word, but still, were the entire story tainted as Molina's fantasy, they would never have shown Gabriel telling Molina that he wasn't interested in him. They showed that he was lying in that situation, as well as lying about his "mother's" fried chicken. The audience is let in on all his bluffs by the end; there's nothing to suggest that about his relationship with Valentin.

I think it equally, if not more likely given your tone throughout this discussion, that you are reading it with the biased perspective that there should not, cannot be any reciprocation on Valentin's part because he's straight.

I completely agree. jasonf is blaming the biased homosexuals in the audience making up something that isn't there, but what about the original intentions of the piece? Do you honestly believe John Kander, Fred Ebb and Terrance McNally would write a show with the narrow-minded views of sexuality that you're attempting to argue? It's much more likely that you're the one with the bias than the creative team with a history of fluid sexuality in their pieces would suddenly become conservative.

Updated On: 4/17/08 at 04:15 PM

[Tesse]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 4:56pm

Good point, orangeskittles. And in the original script for the show, Molina's friendship with Gabriel is exactly as he described it to Valentin. In fact, when he goes to meet Gabriel again, he learns that Gabriel's newest baby is named Luis. It was only later in development that Kander, Ebb & McNally made even that part of Molina's life a fantasy.

[jasonf]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 5:10pm

There can also be an argument made for the production that you see. Remember, I said I saw this years ago. I don't recall there being any hint of Valentin's having any feelings for Molina at the time of Anything For Him OTHER than manipulation. The argument can also be made just from the cast recordings: Anything for Him begins with the Spiderwoman singing. It is established that this is Molina's fantasy. Therefore, anything that happens there can be interpreted as Molina's view. Did Valentin touch and kiss Molina? Yes, you'll get no argument from me. However, looking at from that angle, to say that Valentin now has feelings for Molina, is merely what you as an audience member are reading into it. Yes, maybe my own sexuality plays a part in how I read it: that Molina WISHES there was more there and plays it up in his head (which a director can certainly chose to portray on stage or not), but based on the facts of the given situation, it's also very easy to look at it as pure manipulation on Valentin's part. I find it amazing that I'm accused of being narrow-minded when those pointing the finger refuse to see any way of interpretting but their own.

[Weez]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 5:15pm

(I'm afraid my knowledge in this discussion is a little lacking. I can offer you any opinions or facts you like as far as the play (which I adored) and novel (which I absolutely devoured) are concerned, but as I never got on with the cast recording, I can't say I'm a fan of the musical.)

On with my point: are people saying that Valentin's feelings for (or not) Molina are absolutely written in stone in the book? Or can it be played either way, depending on the choices of the actors? It would be interesting to hear SPECIFIC examples of various Valentins in the musical, if anyone fancies a quick write-up. I'm sure *someone* here must have actually seen it!

Updated On: 4/17/08 at 05:15 PM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 5:17pm

I find it amazing that I'm accused of being narrow-minded when those pointing the finger refuse to see any way of interpretting but their own.

Read between the lines. "Narrow-minded" is the euphemism for a term I believe is more accurate for your views, but I don't want to derail this thread discussing it.

[jasonf]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 5:21pm

Too late, as always, orangeskittles, too late. I've never seen you appear in a thread without making a personal attack, and so no reason for me to be surprised.

Weez, that's my thought exactly. My guess is it would be open to interpretation by the production, though, as I said in my last point, the fact that Anything for Him starts with the Spiderwoman singing would seem to indicate something of fantasy happening there...

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 5:22pm

I'm not refusing to see it any way but my own, I'm considering and responding to arguments that don't make sense to me. I can certainly see the perspective that Valentin is just being manipulative, but I don't think you represented that opinion well at all in your (borderline offensive) post.

Anything for Him begins with the Spiderwoman singing. It is established that this is Molina's fantasy. Therefore, anything that happens there can be interpreted as Molina's view.

I don't quite get this, I don't think. You feel that the scene as is doesn't indicate that Valentin feels anything for Molina, which is fine, but I would still argue with the perspective aspect. Why would Molina, who we're shown in the musical lets himself believe things that aren't true, imagine that Valentin was thinking of sleeping with him just to get his message delivered? If the scene is unreliable because of the Spider Woman's presence, why wouldn't Molina imagine that Valentin was thinking more positive thoughts about him? I 100% agree that the subtext can be played differently depending on the production, but if it is emphasized, I wouldn't say that's just because of Molina's perspective.

Differences of opinions aside, I'd like to say that I'm really enjoying this thread. It's certainly made me want to check out the novel and other productions of the musical, that's for sure. Updated On: 4/17/08 at 05:22 PM

[Weez]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 5:28pm

Anything for Him begins with the Spiderwoman singing. It is established that this is Molina's fantasy. Therefore, anything that happens there can be interpreted as Molina's view.

I'd like to say "not necessarily". How many times have you seen a show where characters stand on the same stage at the same time and sing a duet together, even though we the audience know that they are in different rooms, singing their hearts out alone, as far as the characters are concerned? It's not too far-fetched to imagine that the Spider Woman can be singing the same song as someone else, but not have to be actually there to be singing it.

Did that make sense? I think I used up my eloquence quota on the other page. XP

Differences of opinions aside, I'd like to say that I'm really enjoying this thread. It's certainly made me want to check out the novel and other productions of the musical, that's for sure.

Sweetestsiren, seconded. I love this thread, and I might actually have to give the cast recording yet another go. :3

Updated On: 4/17/08 at 05:28 PM

[jasonf]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 5:39pm

Again, I'm fuzzy on it since it's been a while. I always took it to be that Molina took events that DID happen (ie maybe Gabriel was nice to him once) and turned them into something more via the Spiderwoman fantasy. He took being in jail and turned it into something he was interested in (it's even in the song: "So if you find that you land in jail, a little fantasy will not fail..."). I believe within the reality of the show that Valentin DID touch Molina - how far they went is open to the production, but I also think it's open to the production if Molina sees this as being feelings for him on Valentin's part.
Weez -- there's a difference in what you're pointing out (which is theatrical technique) versus what's in the context of this play. In the play, the Spiderwoman doesn't exist without Molina - she's a figment of his imagination. There would be no reason for her to start singing at the opening of Anything for Him UNLESS we're seeing something through Molina's eyes there. (Or at least, I can't see another reason - if someone has something, I'm open...)

Aside from the ridiculous personal attacks which I will henceforth ignore, I've enjoyed being able to actually discuss the work with some intelligent people on this thread as well...

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 5:40pm

I can actually understand not feeling the cast recording. I think some of the songs are lovely, but there are definitely clunkers, and it's one musical where I think the book is probably stronger than the score.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 7:19pm

Anything for Him begins with the Spiderwoman singing. It is established that this is Molina's fantasy.

I agree with Weez. Not just in all musical theatre; there's nothing in the show that indicates that her mere presence in jail scenes means Molina's interaction with the "real world" is entirely fantasy as well. She appears to Molina when Valentin is poisoned and speaks with him, but that doesn't "establish" Valentin being poisoned is just Molina's fantasy. She's also present in the Russian Movie scene. Does that mean that Valentin's participation in acting it out is all in Molina's head too?


And jasonf, please stop with the passive-aggressive baiting to cause further conflict. There's a difference between a "personal attack" and finding faults in your argument.

[Tesse]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 11:18pm

I'm loving these discussions, too (personal criticisms notwithstanding, ahem). It's great to be able to debate and discuss such a complex show, and I really appreciate reading so many different points of view! It's great to be able to look at this show from a new perspective.

Keep 'em coming!!

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 11:25pm

Jason, you said before there was NO WAY that it could be other than what you prescribed it to be, and now you are accusing others of being intransigent, as well as saying now it's open to interpretation.

In the musical, maybe, but I don't believe gay men are reading into this too much, I think you just lack the subtlety of reading anything into a work that isn't explicitly stated, and there is so much more unsaid in great works of theater that makes them all the more beautiful, and if you are missing that, then you are missing out.

[jasonf]

Posted: 4/18/08 at 8:02am

I still feel, from the productions that I've seen and from the cast albums, that for an audience to make the jump of Valentin (who only cares for his cause and is disgusted not even by what Molina represents but the actual man himself) to Valentin (cares about his cause but now has a sexual attraction to Molina) IS reading a lot into what is there. My point, maybe not put too eloquently before, is that an audience, in ANY storytelling media, brings their own viewpoint and MUST lay their own interpretation onto what is presented.

As a straight man, who, yes, has fielded many questions about my sexuality because of my love of theater, and someone who tries to be accepting and open-minded, I never read into the play that Valentin developed any sexual feelings for Molina. To me, there is nothing, from what I remember of the production I saw or in the cast albums, to say that he DID have those feelings. I DO believe that if you are seeing that then you are projecting your own perspective onto the play. You're allowed to do that. That's what makes theater and movies and novels and music and (in some cases) television so great. BKcollector, honestly, you're being as narrow-minded in your perception of what's in the play as you're accusing me of being if you can't see that.

There's no lack of subtlety on my part here. I've said what my view on the events is already. I don't need to go over that again. I, and apparently a few others on here as well, see it as a valid interpretation -- from MY POV there is "no way" that Valentin developed those feelings. That isn't to say that others can't have other opinions, and any basic level persuasive writing lesson will tell you that when you are stating a point, don't hedge your words with "I think" and "I believe" as I clearly needed to do in order to get my point across.

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/18/08 at 10:58am

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I hope you're not an English Teacher.

[jasonf]

Posted: 4/18/08 at 11:56am

I don't know how old you are, BK, but you have a lot to learn.

If that's the level of response, then I'm done.

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/18/08 at 12:14pm

I'm older than you, Jason, almost definitely with more degrees, and one of them has a concentration in many of the things we've discussed here.

For someone of your age to be so intransigent about his ideas, it's a crying shame that you teach young people.

[jasonf]

Posted: 4/18/08 at 12:28pm

How incredibly presumptous - and from someone here for all of two months.

I'm done with you, BK. Just done.

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/18/08 at 12:31pm

That's fine. I dismissed you as a Pseudo-intellectual from your very first post, Jason.

[Tesse]

Posted: 4/18/08 at 1:41pm

Guys, please... This discussion was going so nicely! Can we get back to debating? That was fun!

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/18/08 at 1:42pm

My apologies, to Jason and others, but willful ignorance is a big pet peeve of mine.

[jasonf]

Posted: 4/18/08 at 1:52pm

Look, we can go back and forth - it's obviously not going to change anything. I don't need to defend myself at all, and I won't. I WILL continue to defend a position - it's the descent into personal attacks rather than cogent arguments that bother me.

So Valentin. Not gay. Discuss.

[Weez]

Posted: 4/18/08 at 1:58pm

So anyway. Can't comment on the musical, as ever, but here's my thought.

We seem to be treating this discussion as absolutes. EITHER Valentin fell in love/lust with Molina OR Valentin didn't give two hoots about Molina, he just wanted to use him.

What I got from seeing the play (possibly combined with what I may wistfully be projecting onto the story from myself and/or the novel) was not that Valentin fell in love or lust or anything with Molina. Their relationship isn't as absolute or as simple as that. It's a very complex thing going on between them. I felt that Valentin grew to hold Molina in certain regard, at times *almost* wishing he could feel more. Is it just me? Also, Valentin may not have been as careful as he could have been around Molina when it came to talking about his life and his comrades, but he was certainly guarded, and perhaps wouldn't have given such important information to someone he couldn't necessarily trust. Dunno about you lot, but I find it difficult to trust people I don't know and like at least fairly well. :P

I should totally dig the film out and give that a watch. I have it around here somewhere. See if I can contribute to the discussion from YET ANOTHER angle that has sod-all to do with the musical.