Signature's "Angels in America" Discussion Thread- Page 2

[Katurian2]

Posted: 1/22/11 at 11:21pm

The first time I ever read (before I ever saw it) the show, I remember reading Joe- not the Angel- as the antagonist. Of course, reading it again and coming to terms more with the play I feel more and more sympathy and even empathy for him.

I like to read it that he shed his skin before he was really ready. He did for questionable reasons at a doubtful time for the sake of hanging onto Louis. I almost think, more than any other character in the show except Roy of course, Joe has more to atone for. But I do think he gets some closure and even satisfaction in the end... Throughout the plays he keeps asking for a new life, for God to break him down into little pieces so he can start over. In the end, he kind of does get that. Harper, Roy and Louis have all left his life, and for the first time, he has the chance to build something up that he really believes in, not for the sake of or at the behest of someone else. You never get to see if he takes that chance or if he falls into back into hiding his real modus vivendi. It'd be nice to assume though that he really strives for something good and new...

Glad you had a good time at the show! Has there really been bad press about Zoe Kazan? I've only heard fantastic things, and I completely agree with them!


ETA: Really, Yankeefan? huh... maybe I wasn't off in the 1st place after all. I'd always thought that the popular reading was the Angel was the villain. Joe is a representation of the repressed state of so many gay men- especially at that time, but even so now. Of course, he handles the situation in a terrible and reckless manner, but I think if he is a villain, he's certainly not one to be hated, but more pitied.

Updated On: 1/22/11 at 11:21 PM

[Chad Eberle]

Posted: 1/22/11 at 11:31pm

I've never heard that before about Kushner considering Joe a villain in the play. I can see how he could be interpreted that way - embarking on a dalliance with Louis knowing full well that Louis had a partner who was sick and needed him....stringing Harper along because he had a need for her companionship even though he wasn't in love with her...but I would never say he was more of a villain than Roy.

I also appreciate your analysis Katurian. I guess I never looked at Joe's plight at the end of the way that way before. I guess in a way, the absence of so much could be viewed as closure for Joe. He just seemed to me - and maybe this was due in part to Heck's interpretation of the role - that he was more lost and angst-ridden at the end of the play than he was at the beginning. Maybe I just have an aversion to things that are open-ended. I don't get the impression that Joe moves forward to a productive, fulfilling future. I get the sense that, having been burned by his tryst with Louis and his misguided attempt to accept himself for who he is, he retreats back into the closet and becomes even more riven with self doubt. In that way, I agree with your assessment that he sheds his skin too early and for the wrong reason.

[Katurian2]

Posted: 1/22/11 at 11:47pm

Yes, I agree. Heck did seem to emphasize Joe's bitterness in the conclusion. I'm trying to recall previous stage productions, but I certainly remember the last image in the miniseries of Patrick Wilson's (who I actually did like in the role) Joe that we see is him scowling and walking down into the subway. I have a friend who swears by the (what I consider to be a little too-literal) interpretation that this symbolizes Joe descending down onto a lower state of being or hell or something akin to that.

Certainly compared to the other characters, Joe doesn't seem to get a 'happy' ending. Even Roy has some sort of last-joke triumph over Ethel and Louis maintains a friendly relationship with Prior. He certainly seems to have some sort of pent up anger and physical aggression in him. But again, I have to defend Joe! His father was a cold-military type, his father-figure is Roy, who spreads bile and corruption, and he had some sort of savior complex for Harper. He's led a very damaged life, and I do agree that unfortunately the most obvious continuance of that would be that he keeps going down on that road, passing his anger and damage on in his own turn.

Updated On: 1/22/11 at 11:47 PM

[LadyJane7710]

Posted: 1/30/11 at 6:52pm

Intrigued by what the new cast may bring to the table, especially the new Harper. Zoe showed glimmers of greatness but I was left really unimpressed by her.

Zach was fantastic and yes gorgeous, but his off stage persona is far too arogant and diva like for me, he looks down at the "little people" unless you are a fan who is kissing his ass. His acting is good, him as a person is vile.

[Katurian2]

Posted: 1/30/11 at 7:05pm

haha- Are we referring to this interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frkLa2V9Tq8 or is there more evidence? I really hadn't heard about his 'diva' persona before this production! Maybe it rubbed off from working with Uber Bitch Hayden Panettiere for so long. X) Even though Quinto does seem do be a diva, I did enjoy his performance here, and in Star Trek, and in Heroes... ok I'm a Quinto fan. Or at least a fan of his work, if not his personality.

[LadyJane7710]

Posted: 1/31/11 at 8:01pm

N/A
Updated On: 1/31/11 at 08:01 PM

[LadyJane7710]

Posted: 1/31/11 at 8:02pm

More then the interview, I guess he is nasty and looks right through the crew of Angels, he forgets he ever knew or met them and just casts them aside, but there are so many rumors about how sweet he is.. yes, if you are famous and can get him jobs OR if you are a "fan" and bring him presents and fawn over him, he also like the lady attention but I keep hearing he's dating Jonathan Groff now. I also heard when he was at CMU he was a nasty piece of work.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/31/11 at 8:20pm

"I guess he is nasty and looks right through the crew of Angels"

Well, that sounds iron-clad reliable to me.

[somethingwicked]

Posted: 1/31/11 at 10:18pm

LadyJane7710, where is there any evidence that Quinto "looks right through the crew"?

That's ridiculous.

[fosca3]

Posted: 1/31/11 at 11:50pm

The friend I saw AiA with was wondering why the angels all referred to themselves as 'I...I...I...' -- is this a biblical reference, or does anyone know where that phrasing comes from? Thanks

[Katurian2]

Posted: 2/1/11 at 7:23am

I think the I-I-I-I's were meant to refer to the different 'aspects' or divine emanations of the Angel- Lumen Phosphor Fluor Candle.

You can see that in the Character Notes before Perestroika where Kushner writes, "THE ANGEL, four divine emanations, Fluor, Phosphor, Lumen and Candle; manifest in One: the Continental Principality of America."


I'm not sure about any specific Biblical reference this makes. Maybe someone else could help? I've heard about the ten sacred names of God, but not any emanations of angels.

Updated On: 2/1/11 at 07:23 AM

[PiraguaGuy2]

Posted: 2/1/11 at 8:32am

I always thought the "I-I-I-I" was a speech impediment, a sort of stammer that all the Angels share. I've heard references (I don't remember if they're Kushner's) to "ineffectual angels" who "stand around in heaven stammering 'I-I-I-I' because they have no idea". It sort of fits in with the idea that the angels are extremely aloof and ineffectual and have no idea how to deal with the problems on Earth.

[LadyJane7710]

Posted: 2/2/11 at 6:37pm

Nothing definitive just something I heard. A rumor if you will just like how he is gay or that Christian Borle is still dating Laura Bell Bundy.

[Katurian2]

Posted: 2/2/11 at 8:58pm

The way that Frank Wood and even Zoe Kazan played the angels in the last heaven scene for sure support the speech impediment interpretation. Wood did something where he sucked his breath in for the whole series of I's that was pretty neat. It would also go to serve the issue that angels prefer the stasis and it takes them such a long period of time to decide or act on anything.

I've never heard that interpretation before though- very neat and interesting idea!

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 2/2/11 at 10:12pm

I have always been terminally confused by the presence of the angel and what she represents. The relationship between her and Prior so often adversarial, but there's the scene where he tells Belize how much he loves her. (Granted, that's before she makes her appearance.) And I'll probably never understand the significance of the plasma orgasmata.

[truth2]

Posted: 2/2/11 at 10:50pm

To all posting in this thread or on any boards anywhere you need to know the following info the poster ladyJane7710 is really named Sarahi she often has a friend who uses the name amtji. They make up fake twitter account and claim to be married to Quinto. She has threaten Quinto on his twitter account many times. Called him f----t many times said she would do him harm many times. To the point non fans of Quinto have asked that his people to look into an order of protection against her. She has stolen the indentity of anyone who she can who has anything nice to say about Quinto and uses those identity on boards. She attacked his family and dead father and has been stalking online a young woman whose father is suffering from cancer(very serious)all because she resented that fact that young woman got pictures taken by Quinto's brother. This woman is danger and I assure you we are talking here stalker dangerous like what happened to the senator. Please be careful. If you have any doubt go to twitter and asked anyone who has follow Quinto's account there. It truly is scary and the police will not doubt be involved soon. Please understand everything she said here is a lie and this is all about a very sad sick unstable woman who kept begging him for sexual favors and to be her boyfriend on twitter and he never replied since then she has stalked him online with threat of harming the man or making up stories about coke on JustJarod calling him f----t every night on twitter where twitter itself blocked her. I figure based on how danger and unstable this woman is someone had to warn you all. Everything she posted here was a lie. And given her stalking of other women online who are fans of quinto and making their lives hell you all needed to be warn. Sorry to have had to place this here but this sicko is seriously dangerous be careful with your personal info around her.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 2/2/11 at 11:16pm

A senator has a stalker? The senator with the corkscrew model? I am SOOOO confused.

[Katurian2]

Posted: 2/2/11 at 11:24pm

Well I think that at first when Prior says he loves her, Louis has left at that point. Whether you're reading the play with the interpretation that it is 'real' or Prior's fever dream, if would make sense that Prior 'loves' her in part because Louis has abandoned him, but the Angel is sticking around.

haha- I think plasma orgasmata is meant to be a joke line, but it goes along with the Angel's whole, "The body is the garden of the soul," and the explanation of the angels' history that they copulated ceaselessly before God left them for humans. I've never really thought about it on any advanced level before.... but could it be that it reflects developments in Prior's own life. His own story relates to the Angels' in that he was left by Louis and they were left by God- the man that got away. Before he got AIDS, Prior was also able to 'copulate ceaselessly' - well nearso- but then the earthquake happened/AIDS happened and God/Louis left and the earth/Prior's body began to devolve into decay and chaos. Sex and orgasms are the cultivation of the soul that is sort of a throwback to lighter days.

I do like to read the play with the split intention that both it did all 'actually happen' and also with the idea that everything that happens to Prior is a parable he creates to reflect his own ordeal. I think there are mirroring occurrences between him and the Angel as stated above, even though, along with the very prospect of 'Stasis,' the Angel is one of the primary villains of the play. (Along with Roy)

Updated On: 2/2/11 at 11:24 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 2/2/11 at 11:30pm

Whenever I think about it as an "it all really happened" scenario, I worry about the kitchen repairs.

[Katurian2]

Posted: 2/2/11 at 11:32pm

haha- and all the fluorocarbons in the atmosphere!

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 2/2/11 at 11:35pm

How could he possibly explain it? He can't blame it on the cat, she took off before the curtain rose.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 11:41am

Any word on the replacements yet?

I'm-a be marathoning it next Wednesday.

[Katurian2]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 1:11pm

Be sure to give us a word about how Michael Urie is. I'd be very curious. Seems like Prior is such an easily misinterpreted role- I'm curious how he does. I might consider seeing one or both parts again if I hear he's worth it. Also curious about Kiera Keeley. Let us know!

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 1:18pm

Kat, u r a doll, and just for you, there will be a full report.

<3 <3

[Katurian2]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 1:37pm

And I look forward to reading every word of it!