The genius of Sondheim — Page 2
#27
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:27am
Honestly, voiceanth, I don't disagree with what you're saying about supporting young people. But that doesn't mean we have to negate what people have done in the past merely because it's in the past. Yes, his last new show was '95? But I don't see Mozart, Tennessee Williams, or some other artists (dead or alive) putting out new stuff and yet they are still respected. I'm just asking for a little perspective. We shouldn't have to choose between supporting young people and their new products or maintaining our love for those things written thirty years ago.
You promised me poems. ~Tricky
Updated On: 8/24/05 at 11:27 AM
#29
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:31am
*bows to SorryGrateful*
I couldn't have said it better myself. Modern culture's longing for "the next new thing" at the expense of the classic makes me truly sad.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Modern culture's longing for "the next new thing" at the expense of the classic makes me truly sad.
Updated On: 8/24/05 at 11:31 AM
#31
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:38am
Voiceanth, staying power is a huge thing in this business. And so far Mraz hasn't proved that he has it. Why? Because he hasn't been around long enough! He's extremely talented and could have a very promising future ahead of him. But given that he doesn't even work in the same medium as Sondheim, there is absolutely no way you can compare the two. If you want to compare Mraz to, say, Lennon and McCartney, be my guest. Have fun. That might end up being a good showdown. But I honestly have to think that you are either an idiot or completely bored and looking to start trouble by posting that idiotic comparison on a board started to celebrate the genius of a man who deseres said celebration. Take your uninformed 15-year-old opinion to the off-topic board where it belongs and start one of those "OMG I Freaking LUV Mraz!" threads.
And with that, I exit before I hurt someone.
And with that, I exit before I hurt someone.
#32
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:38am
I agree with the potential of Jason Robert Brown to become a master. He has great ability with words and music.
This is a theatre site so generally people her eat least like theatre and are drawn to the talents it has. Mraz may be a fine songwriter, but I have never heard him and his lyrics as posted here looked insipid.
None of that negates the idea that we should express the virtues of the masters who have come before, and in Sondheim's case are still working. This thread also was dedicated to something specific, Sondheim's ability with musical themes.
Best12bars, you seem simply unwilling or unable to understand a larger picture view and insist upon taking this percieved slight personally. WICKED has thematic elements, especialy in some of the music, that are advanced. It also has a very standard pop-song based score, that does not advance well in the ART of musical theatre. I enjoy it, many such as yourself love it.
This is a theatre site so generally people her eat least like theatre and are drawn to the talents it has. Mraz may be a fine songwriter, but I have never heard him and his lyrics as posted here looked insipid.
None of that negates the idea that we should express the virtues of the masters who have come before, and in Sondheim's case are still working. This thread also was dedicated to something specific, Sondheim's ability with musical themes.
Best12bars, you seem simply unwilling or unable to understand a larger picture view and insist upon taking this percieved slight personally. WICKED has thematic elements, especialy in some of the music, that are advanced. It also has a very standard pop-song based score, that does not advance well in the ART of musical theatre. I enjoy it, many such as yourself love it.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
#33
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:40am
Voiceanth, how can you see how ridiculous it is to compare Mozart's work with Sondheim's and NOT see how equally ridiculous it is to compare Mraz with Sondheim? I'm completely flabbergasted!
#35
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:44am
I don't think it's ridiculous to compare Mozart and Sondheim. At least to an extent. Both are/were ridiculously talented and dedicated to thier craft. Mozart has over-proven his staying power and Sondheim has proved his great potential staying power. The difference is that Mozart IS classic art and Sondheim WILL BE classic art. The fact that their respective art is in different mediums doesn't matter.
50 years from now, both Sondheim and Mozart will be on those lists of "classics". I have no doubt about it.
50 years from now, both Sondheim and Mozart will be on those lists of "classics". I have no doubt about it.
#36
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:46am
I agree that to compare ANYBODY to Mozart is foolhardy, HOWEVER, the comparison of Sondheim to Mozart is a whole hellava lot more plausible than Sondheim to Mraz. Hell, Comparing Scwartz to Sondhiem is more plausible than compaing him to Mraz.
"Ha-La-La-La??"
"Ha-La-La-La??"
Updated On: 8/24/05 at 11:46 AM
#37
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:48am
None of the new composers with the exception of perhaps Adam Guettel and Jason Robert Brown have truly made their mark yet. They have a long way to go before people discuss them as much as Schwartz and Sondheim. They haven't earned it like the aforementioned gentlemen have.
BSoBW2: I punched Sondheim in the face after I saw Wicked and said, "Why couldn't you write like that!?"
#38
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:51am
Voiceanth, to say that Sondheim is at the same level of status or potential as Mozart is I agree quite outlandish, simply because Mozart was not a master but THE master.
A key difference as well is that Sondheim has to write for a medium that is Produced, other artists are there to butcher his work. The score to BOUNCE is not what killed it, it will take its place as a classic someday. 15 works for the stage today is not simply 15 works of musical composition.
Mraz has not even come to that point, the one person in popular music who belongs in this conversation is Bob Dylan. Of course, your original arguement of supporting younger artists comes to mind, I support them yet you need to be a master before being discussed as one. That takes time.
A key difference as well is that Sondheim has to write for a medium that is Produced, other artists are there to butcher his work. The score to BOUNCE is not what killed it, it will take its place as a classic someday. 15 works for the stage today is not simply 15 works of musical composition.
Mraz has not even come to that point, the one person in popular music who belongs in this conversation is Bob Dylan. Of course, your original arguement of supporting younger artists comes to mind, I support them yet you need to be a master before being discussed as one. That takes time.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
#39
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:55am
I know this is off-topic to an extent, and i apologize, but I just had a thought:
Why do we not see ourselves mentioning the (argueably) most successful writers of the "new breed" mentioned here? I refer, of course, to Flaherty and Ahrens.
My take on this:
F&A are strictly writing in the traditional style. Not "breaking new ground" or "advancing the art form." THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS.
I happen to love F&A's work. Perhaps they will be to Guettel or JRB what K&E or Cy Coleman were to Sondheim?
Not trying to start a new thread, sorry for the off-topic.
Why do we not see ourselves mentioning the (argueably) most successful writers of the "new breed" mentioned here? I refer, of course, to Flaherty and Ahrens.
My take on this:
F&A are strictly writing in the traditional style. Not "breaking new ground" or "advancing the art form." THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS.
I happen to love F&A's work. Perhaps they will be to Guettel or JRB what K&E or Cy Coleman were to Sondheim?
Not trying to start a new thread, sorry for the off-topic.
#40
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:57am
Mister and free-- Thank you!
And in regard to the Mozart/Sondheim comparison, I was just pulling stuff out of my a--. I couldn't think of anyone more comparable at the moment. Yet, I still stand by what I'm saying, even with my less than admirable comparison. But I also think we all need to take a step back and realize that Stephen Sondheim's works don't really need our defenses. I honestly feel that his music, lyrics, and shows will be around for a long time, just like R&H's are. Sweeney Todd, Company, Into the Woods, etc., are so strong that they can speak for themselves. (That doesn't mean I don't get mad when I hear people compare him to pop writers.
)
And in regard to the Mozart/Sondheim comparison, I was just pulling stuff out of my a--. I couldn't think of anyone more comparable at the moment. Yet, I still stand by what I'm saying, even with my less than admirable comparison. But I also think we all need to take a step back and realize that Stephen Sondheim's works don't really need our defenses. I honestly feel that his music, lyrics, and shows will be around for a long time, just like R&H's are. Sweeney Todd, Company, Into the Woods, etc., are so strong that they can speak for themselves. (That doesn't mean I don't get mad when I hear people compare him to pop writers.
)
You promised me poems. ~Tricky
#41
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:57am
Thank you, SmartPenguin, for living up to your name and being way more rational than I. Something tells me voiceanth just wanted to be mischievous. But it still got me all riled up and even more feisty than I usually am. I'm trying to calm down now.
#42
Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:58am
Wow, I feel like an idiot. I haven't even heard of Flaherty and Ahrens. Anyone care to point me in the right direction?
#43
Posted: 8/24/05 at 12:00pm
Ragtime, Dessa Rose, Once On This Island, Lucky Stiff, A Man of No Importance, Seussical
#44
Posted: 8/24/05 at 12:02pm
Ah, I was wondering myself. Sadly, I've only heard Ragtime.
You promised me poems. ~Tricky
#45
Posted: 8/24/05 at 12:03pm
Hah. I've heard OF all of those, but never HEARD them or knew who wrote them.
*checks account balance*
Crap.
*checks account balance*
Crap.
#46
Posted: 8/24/05 at 12:03pm
I love getting people fiesty but I also stand by what I write ! My opinion is unlike Mozart, Sondheim will be regard with a much more level headed view than he is today!
Now how about that John Mayer!???
Now how about that John Mayer!???
#47
Posted: 8/24/05 at 12:05pm
Ummm...are you joking?
I like the guy as much as the next person, but...
You know what? Nevermind.
I like the guy as much as the next person, but...
You know what? Nevermind.
#48
Posted: 8/24/05 at 12:06pm
why, thank you katygrace. I understand your sentiments.
FandA are really quite marvelous. (except Seusical) Yet somehow their work never seems as high in my mind as others. I think its in part because they are a working in traditional forms, and as a team. They are always up near the top, but never at the top.
I think it is a well formed point in any event misterrussel.
FandA are really quite marvelous. (except Seusical) Yet somehow their work never seems as high in my mind as others. I think its in part because they are a working in traditional forms, and as a team. They are always up near the top, but never at the top.
I think it is a well formed point in any event misterrussel.
I stand corrected, you are as vapid as they say.
#49
Posted: 8/24/05 at 12:07pm
Oh voiceanth, you're bound and determined to make us all go a little nutty today, aren't you? You want to start a Mayer thread on the off-topic board and I just might be over there helping oyu out on that one. Let's just not go comparing him to Sondheim and you and I can get along just fine.
#50
Posted: 8/24/05 at 12:12pm
"Why, Georgia" by Mr. Mayer describes isolation and suffering for one's art in a way that transcends a pop song!
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