The genius of Sondheim

[Sumofallthings]

Posted: 8/23/05 at 10:58pm

So I was rereading the thread entitled "Into the Woods lyric" and someone mentioned all of the parallels, inversions

(All the witches, all the curses, All the wolves, all the lies, the false hopes, the good-bye's,The reverses,)

that occur in Sondheim shows. I wanted to make a thread dedicated to people revealing these little known secrets for all to appreciate the true musical theatre genius of Stephen Sondheim. We'll start with some from the Into the Woods thread (forgive me for not knowing whom to give credit to)


"...the five-note theme that recurs throughout ITW.

Calvin listed most of the places it is heard - but here is a secret revealed by Sondheim:

The phrase "people make mistakes" in NO ONE IS ALONE is the "bean theme" turned "upside down"! To explain:

Let's say the "bean theme" starts on "C". The second note is down a fifth to F. The next note is up a step to G. Next is down a third to E. Finally, you go down a step to D.

If you start "children make mistakes" on C, you go UP a fifth to G, then DOWN a step to F, then UP a third to A, finally UP a step to F.

In other words, the intervals are the same, just in the opposite diection.

And that's why Sondheim is a genius!"



"There are more parallels throughout that score. The discovery songs of Little Red Riding Hood, Jack and Cinderella all feature a variation on the same rythmic figure in the accompaniment. "Our Little World," "Lament" and "Children Will Listen" are all melodically linked together. The main melody of "Stay With Me" is also the five note bean theme."



"The reason why the same actor played the Mysterious Man and the Narrator in the original production is for a version of Act Two that got abandoned in previews on Broadway. At the end of the show, the Narrator was revealed to be the Baker's Son (the baby that the Baker is telling the story to at the end of the show, all grown up). So the Mysterious Man is the Narrator's grandfather. It brought the theme of fathers and sons full circle, and the way that we pass stories on to future generations.

It was not due to cheap producing."

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 1:27am

I do not want to take anything away from Mr. Sondheim by saying this but it isn't just genius. Oh the man is a genius, no question but all he does different from other writers is work harder on his scores.

By that I mean, he polishes and rewrites each lyric over and over, checking his rhyming dictionary and thesaurus looking for the perfect word.

While some lyricists content themselves with 2 lines that rhyme, Sondheim knows that every word counts and chooses each one with care.

That's not genius: That is dedication.

What bothers me is the number of young people here who take this for granted, and do not pay attention to the level of Sondheim's lyrics and how they are reinforced by his music. Instead, they wildly overpraise WICKED and complain that GYPSY "was boring." If these people are the audience of Broadway future, I shudder to think of what the great white way will be like in 15-20 years.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 1:31am

I must say the musical theory is lost on me, but the majestic wordplay and attention to detail is exquisite.

I am in my 20's so not entirely young, but I try to praise the virtues of Sondheim to all I meet and if I have children, this will be the music they learn.
I believe there are many of us, to keep the torch alive for the next 20 years, and beyond.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 1:52am

Well, I can only hope. But when SWEENEY TODD lasts 15 months on Broaway while PHNATOM runs 16 years...oh well, have to keep blood pressure down.

Back on topic....

Things to look for in Sondheim scores.


Notice how the opening acompaniment of PASSION is later slowed down to become the melody of the opening line of "Loving You."

Notice how "Hail to the Chief" becomes the key motif of ASSASSINS.

Notice how "Sunday" is the first time the cast sings in full harmony.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 2:03am

Even as terrible as I am with music I noticed that motiff in ASSASSINS.
I can't account for people's lack of taste, I know even outside of Broadway the things I like are generally most apt to be canceled/sell less.
Maybe the SWEENY revival will pull a CHICAGO style run (I know it's crazy talk, but we can dream)
and this long rumoured new show or BOUNCE retooled?
I'm a dreamer, a cynical dreamer, but still a dreamer.

[wickedkiwi]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 3:59am

omg this stuff is sooo interesting. i mean it. i love sondheim but i've never actually sat down to analyze it before.

here comes a little anecdote:
my music theory teacher told me that one has to be a student to become a teacher. then after being a teacher, one can become an artist. thats as far as some people go. but after becoming an artist, one can become a MASTER.

masters are the like of danny elfman, though he's really young. bethoven, mozart, the guy who wrote the theme for that famous diamond commercial, i forget his name. john williams, etc.

i think sondheim either IS or is on his way of becoming a master.

i think schwartz is also leaving the artist realm, but he's quite behind sondheim. what schwartz likes to do is play with genre's rather than motifs and lyric like sondheim. godspell is an excellent example. has anyone noticed the "heavy metal" rythmic pattern and instrumentation towards the end of no one mourns the wicked (when glinda starst saying good news)? or the way the "unlimited" theme sounds a LOT like the beginning of somewhere over the rainbow?

sorry, i just like schwartz.

sondheim should compose the score for some cool movie - he'd do well.

anyway...i wanna know more about interesting things in sondheim scores. tell me more!!

[MrBungee7]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 4:05am

Oh man, I love the one about the opening of Passion...

Speaking of which, I just finished listening to Passion and I realized that in three Sondheim shows (or perhaps more that I'm simply not remembering) the 'leading' female comes back in the finale to present some kind of important message or realization. Fosca (Passion), Dot (SITPWG), and the Baker's wife (Into the Woods). Not necessarily an answer to the posed question, but I found it interesting anyhow.

[wickedkiwi]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 4:12am

mhmmm...now THAT's interesting. maybe the female represents truth for him.

there's also obviously the recurrent theme about connecting in his work.
examples, sunday in the park, passion, assassins, company

and the negative aspects of following dreams:
assassins, sunday, into the woods

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 5:04am

"schwartz likes to do is play with genre's rather than motifs and lyric like sondheim. godspell is an excellent example. has anyone noticed the "heavy metal" rythmic pattern and instrumentation towards the end of no one mourns the wicked (when glinda starst saying good news)?

Hmmm I don't remember that being in GODSPELL. :)

I can't think of any Stephen Schwartz score that is composed to built on thematic character motifs. None in GODSPELL, PIPPIN, MAGIC SHOW or BAKER'S WIFE. Mostly Schwartz writes pop-type songs that are mostly self-contained (Day By Day, Magic to Do, Corner of the Sky, West End Avenue, Meadowlark.) I don't think he has ever written a score where the second number builds upon themes introduced in the first, and then recurs later. Compare your beloved WICKED with SWEENEY TODD which opens with a factory whistle followed by what is actually the closing number. Then the story cycles back to the beginning with two musical themes "No Place Like London" and "The Barber and his wife." Mrs Lovett picks up on this second theme in the show's fourth number while "No Place Like London" re-appears as an introduction to Anthony's "Joanna" scena. How about how "Pirelli's Miracle Elixir" reappears at the tow of Act two as Tobias’s spiel about Mrs Lovett's Meat pies during "God That's Good." Notice too how in "Not While I'm Around" the accompaniment is very simple and sweet when Tobias sings it and then when Mrs Lovett sings it back to him the violin plays a nasty angular counter-melody indicating that her sentiments are not true. As the melodrama concludes the factory whistle is heard signalling a reprise of "The Ballad of Sweeney Todd" brining us full circle.

Other Sondheim shows go full circle: SUNDAY IN THE PARK ("White. A Blank page or canvas...); INTO THE WOODS ("I Wish..."); ASSASSINS ("Everybody's Got the Right...") and even NIGHT MUSIC Which begins and ends with a member of the quintet striking a note on the piano.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 9:15am

"Instead, they wildly overpraise WICKED and complain that GYPSY "was boring." If these people are the audience of Broadway future, I shudder to think of what the great white way will be like in 15-20 years."

How very pompous of you.....

lol, um......I am NOT young, I started out as a music major, and I was, am, and will always be totally bored with Gypsy.....so that shoots your theory to hell.

[QueenAnne82]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 9:20am

"we are unworthy of your words, stephen darling, we cannot sing your minor thirds... you are a god to theatre nerds just like me..."

hehe. Love to sondeim. His music is very creative, inctricate and unquie. love to swartz- he's fun and peppy. Damn... maybe if I have a kid, I should name him stephen. Or maybe it's in the water. So much freaking talent!

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 10:06am

I understand a thread praising Stephen Sondheim, but let's not bash Stephen Schwartz in the same breath. Come on... That's getting really old now... just as old as the OMG Idina!!! postings. And mostly these tired bashes come off as inacurrate and plain "sour grapes" jealousy.

There are several threads posted already pointing out the hidden gems in the "Wicked" score. (Like the "unimited" theme being the first 5 notes of Over the Rainbow, reworked, etc. Many others.) Just because you didn't see them or dismissed this musical score, doesn't mean they're not in there... and I'm sure quite a lot of thought and care went into the creation, as well. Try looking deeper next time.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 10:48am

"I can't think of any Stephen Schwartz score that is composed to built on thematic character motifs." this is really a "bash?"

Best12bars, lets not have the same tired problem where every disagreement is seen as a bash. Frontrow's dislike for Schwartz in comparison to Sondheim was fairly detailed and based upon a musical examination. It is possible to express distaste for a work and it not be "bashing" someone.

Stating a legitimate difference of opinion expressed with civility and through the use of actual examples is one of the great positives of message boards.

[lamentingenvelope]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 10:57am

I used to be completely obsessed with Wicked.

And then I happened to pick up the Company OBC and I haven't looked back since.

I don't hate Wicked.

I just really, really, really, really, really, really like Sondheim.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 10:58am

Bash, slam, slap, punch, kick... Call it what you like.

I'll take my "beloved" Wicked (as he's referred to it), just as it is, thanks.

Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:03am

Updated On: 10/27/05 at 11:03 AM

[ckeaton]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:09am

Copyrighted lyrics? Goodbye.

[GYPSY1527]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:15am

This might not be what you guys are talking about but I had a Sondheim craving yesterday and plopped myself in from of the TV and in a row watched "Sweeney Todd", "Sunday..." and "Passion". After each one, I thought to myself, "This CAN NOT get any better" and somehow it did. I just found myseld thinking over and over agian that this guy is just brillant! Call him genius, brillant or amazing. Either way, I turned to my sister after watching all three and said "mark my words, 100 years from now, HE will be the one composer looked at with more admiration than Rodgers and Hammerstein, Porter and the rest!

[katygrace84]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:16am

Um, I like Jason Mraz, but IN WHAT FREAKING WORLD IS HE AT ALL COMPARABLE TO THE GENIUS THAT IS SONDHEIM? I would really like to see this world. Especially given Mraz's vast experience neither writing lyrics nor a score for an entire Tony-winning Broadway musical.

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:17am

OK, before this thread gets deleted or you do or the whole website explodes from the copywrighted lyrics posting, I just want to respond. Honestly, you're going to compare Jason Mraz to Stephen Sondheim? Come on. I have nothing bad to say about Jason Mraz, since I think he's cool. But Mraz vs. Sondheim? Sondheim has worked for, what, like 50 years perfecting his art and his craft, received accolades and condemnation from people all around, won and lost Tonys, and still kept going and persevering. There's a lot of subtlety and craft in Sondheim's stuff and to compare it to Jason Mraz lyrics is farcical and baffling. If you don't like Sondheim's stuff, at least respect it for how amazing it is.

[MisterRussell]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:18am

As a fan of both Sondheim and Schwartz, I offer my two bits:

Yes, Sondheim is a "master." The maturity and insight of his works, while very possibly influenced by the excellent books of James Lapine and others, display a talent and an invention far beyond ANY other "traditional" composer/lyricist currently working. Blanket statement of my OPINION, please don't crap all over me for it.

Schwartz is a very very good songwriter, who has given me enormous pleasure over the years. My favorite Schwartz works are PIPPIN and THE BAKER'S WIFE, showing me at least that he's no flash-in-the-tin-pan-alley tunesmith.

I cannot, however, put the two of them in the same category. Sondheim really does transcend most everyone else.

Schwartz, with WICKED, seems to be making an effort to forge new thematic ground as a composer/lyricist. At this, I feel that he succeeds only musically. The lyrics for WICKED are the weakest I have ever seen from him. The man who could write the intelligent and witty "No Time At All," "Merci, Madame" and "Mine, Mine, Mine" is nowhere to be found in "Something Baa-a-a-a-a-d."

I listened again to PARADE last night. If you want to compare talents, then I'd put up JRB against Sondheim. Sondheim would win, but JRB would have a lot more of my respect.

[katygrace84]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:20am

YES! da da da da! I was wondering when you would show up to defend the honor of your man and save the day, SorryGrateful! Listen to this woman! She loves Sondheim more than anyone I know!

Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:22am

Updated On: 10/27/05 at 11:22 AM

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:22am

Stop! I'm blushing, kate. I think I may have been a little harsh. But I stand by my comments!




P.S. I see I've turned you into a convert?

[freeadmission]

Posted: 8/24/05 at 11:23am

"I listened again to PARADE last night. If you want to compare talents, then I'd put up JRB against Sondheim. Sondheim would win, but JRB would have a lot more of my respect."

I can't think of anything that hasn't yet been said, so I'll say this:

AMEN!