Those PERFECT shows? — Page 2

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#26

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 3:53pm

La Cage is close, but as is the case with most Jerry Herman shows, he plays to the delight of the audience at times, rather than focusing only on moving the story forward musically. The title number, We Are What We Are - don't really move the story forward (while many numbers in it do - gangbusters - Look Over There comes to mind)

"Hello, Dolly" is close, but the waiters gallop is merely a dance showcase and moves no story forward.

Updated On: 6/7/10 at 03:53 PM

#27

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 3:56pm

Muscle...ohhhh my....Young Frankenstein? Rent? Rock of Ages? We're talking about PERFECT shows, with songs that move the plot and good character arcs... I've seen some pretty stupid stuff posted on here (mostly by you)...but that post might've summed it all up.

"These rabid fans...possess the acting talent to portray the hooker...Linda Eder..." -The New York Times

#28

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 3:59pm

"Hairspray"

Fantastic toe tapping score, laugh out loud funny, great star turns for non traditional leading performers to shine and a social message to boot.

#29

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 3:59pm

Les Mis is SO far from perfect. There's no book.

The Music Man is close, but not so. "Shipoopi", barber shop moments, move no story forward.

1776 is close, but there's no dancing, and a few songs don't move the story forward - "Lees of Old Virginia", "He Plays the Violin", "Mama Look Sharp" - all great songs, with huge emotional payoff, but don't advance the action of the play much. 1776 certainly has the best book of any musical ever.

Sounds like how you define a musical is extremely limiting. Les Miserables does have a book. The book is not limited to dialogue. Even ballets have books. And there is no musical that hold up well with a bad director at the helm, no matter the cast. I'd be inclined to add Oklahoma or Gypsy to my list (both shows include songs that do not forward the plot, which seems to be one of your criteria), but I've never considered West Story Story or My Fair Lady perfect. West Side Story's score and original staging/choreography have much to do with its longevity (not to mention the film), but the book is lopsided and very weak in many places.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian

#30

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 3:59pm

HELLO DOLLY, most definitely.

I would not say SOUTH PACIFIC. That show, like SOUND OF MUSIC, can drag terribly in a less-than-stellar production. The revival has just reminded us of how incredible that show can and should be.

#31

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:00pm

Again, it's hard for me to qualify RENT as a musical. It's more of a rock opera that found success on Broadway.

muscle just posted musicals he likes. But there s a difference between a musical you enjoy and a perfect musical.

#32

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:01pm

Not being snarky, it has been awhile since I saw the show (which I found boring, but could have been the production) how does the title song in "Oklahoma" move the plot forward?

#33

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:01pm

I don't understand these sentiments of "well, I would say this is a perfect show, but I've seen a bad production of it." A perfectly-constructed show doesn't mean that it's immune to bad direction/acting/what have you.

#34

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:04pm

(inlovewithjerry) I would say that "we are what we are" it essential in setting the setting and mood.

I thought it was all a flash in the pan. It wasn't until Broadway came along that I felt I had really made it. -Julie Andrews

Updated On: 6/7/10 at 04:04 PM

#35

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:05pm

Les Mis is a pop opera that found success on Broadway, not a musical.

No disrespect to it, i LOVE les mis. But it's not really a musical by definition.

Yes, it is. So is Rent. A sung-through musical is still a musical. It's sort of like saying that all musicals that came before Oklahoma are no longer musicals because they didn't contain the same elements and structure.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian

#36

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:07pm

Well put, Taryn.

It is limiting, Mister Matt, but what do you define as a musical? Something that has played on Broadway? A play with songs? If that's the case, why isn't any play with songs a musical?

To be a musical, a story arc must by told through the use of dialogue, song and dance at moments of high stakes. The reason we have musicals today is because of the idea, had by Kern and Hammerstein, to tell a story using all elements of entertainment - and they got "Show Boat".

"Oklahoma!" became a revolution because it was the perfect dramatic synthesis of all three units, everything was purely for character and story, and thusly, we now have musicals.

I'm also not saying that these shows are immune - we all saw this last production of Guys and Dolls - but they meet the definition of the musical perfectly, and when well cast (like MacAnuff missed in this last production) will work to at least some degree.

This is a great thread, by the way. Awesome discussion.

Updated On: 6/7/10 at 04:07 PM

#37

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:10pm

The show ITSELF can be perfect and flawless in evey way. That doesn't mean a terrible production can come from it. We all thought GUYS AND DOLLS was indestructable...look what happened there.

"These rabid fans...possess the acting talent to portray the hooker...Linda Eder..." -The New York Times

#38

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:12pm

Exactly, wicked.

I still disagree with Matt. Rent and Les Mis are operas, imo - there is no spoken word or dance. Just because they found popularity on the musical theatre landscape and qualified for a "Best Musical" Tony doesn't make them a musical.

Are they great pieces of writing? Yes. Why they are so close to a musical, and why have they found success on that landscape, is because the dramatic action is much more cohesive in Rent or Les Mis than a typical opera. It's more about the story than the music.

But a sung-thru musical is different from a just a musical, isn't it? We have to invent a new term for it because it's not, by definition, a musical.

Updated On: 6/7/10 at 04:12 PM

#39

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:13pm

I agree. Most productive discussion I've ever had on here, I think haha.

"These rabid fans...possess the acting talent to portray the hooker...Linda Eder..." -The New York Times

#40

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:17pm

To be a musical, a story arc must by told through the use of dialogue, song and dance at moments of high stakes.

Actually, what truly defines a musical is how the use of music, either in song or dance, is devoted to plot or concept of the show and to what extent it is used. It also has a lot to do with the style of music and the technique of singing, but that mostly has to do with delineating operas and operettas. But there is a reason every critic, historian and textbook has acknowledged that shows like Evita, Les Miserables, Jesus Christ Superstar and Tommy are musicals. As the art form has evolved (as every art form does), the definition evolves as well. Perhaps 50-100 years from now, sung-through musicals may evolve into an independent form of theatre, but through today, they have always been considered musicals.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian

#41

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:23pm

But a sung-thru musical is different from a just a musical, isn't it? We have to invent a new term for it because it's not, by definition, a musical.

Not really. Pretty much everyone calls them musicals. You were the first to segregate them because they are sung-through. Nobody else has felt the need to address them differently.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian

#42

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:24pm

That's certainly true. The art form does and has changed. Earlier in the thread I mentioned how A Chorus Line and Company could be considered perfect concept musicals.

and thusly, Rent and Les Mis could be considered perfect sung-thru musicals.

I suppose I'm defining it by the idea of a book musical, then. Still, i think there's something in the fact that we didn't have musical theatre before Show Boat and Oklahoma! - they set the standard for us to build on and evolve, but the purest idea of a musical is one that meets the criteria i've been touting all along.

I still don't think Les Mis is perfect, though. : )

#43

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:37pm

Still, i think there's something in the fact that we didn't have musical theatre before Show Boat and Oklahoma!

We did. Nearly 30 years of musicals existed before Show Boat. Show Boat and Oklahoma were landmark musicals, but TONS of musicals existed before either of them.

And concept musicals are also musicals. When discussing "perfect Musicals", I assumed we were discussing all musicals, not excluding those that broke conventional barriers. If only conventional book musicals are those that can be considered "musicals", then it no longer exists as an art form because it would then be limited to set rules, structure and it would be devoid of imagination and creative thought. It would only be variations on the same theme. How far back do you go? When Show Boat opened, it was not considered a "musical". It was something new. Same thing with Oklahoma. And nobody knew what to make of West Side Story. Many critics and detractors even stated it truly had no score as they felt the songs were utterly devoid of melody (including Mary Rodgers).

You can sub-categorize revues, sung-through shows, jukebox musicals, and catalog/biography musicals, but the reason they are sub-categories is because they are all musicals.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian

#44

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 4:49pm

Why aren't concept MUSICALS considered MUSICALS in your terms? It has "musical" in the name of it! Also, Company isn't necessarily a non-linear musical. When I first saw it, I interpreted it as Act I being Bobby visiting his friends over the next year as they asked at his birthday party, Act II opening with his 36th birthday, and the closing being his 37th. That's not how most people see it, but an interpretation can't be wrong. Also, A Chorus Line is very much a linear musical--it tells the story of people auditioning for a musical and either making it or getting cut.

#45

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 5:10pm

"Still, i think there's something in the fact that we didn't have musical theatre before Show Boat and Oklahoma!

We did. Nearly 30 years of musicals existed before Show Boat. Show Boat and Oklahoma were landmark musicals, but TONS of musicals existed before either of them."

Exactly, I would consider Anything Goes to be on this list of perfect musicals, and that was before Showboat or Oklahoma.

"Rent and Les Mis are operas, imo - there is no spoken word or dance."

Yes there is spoken word and dance, have you seen these shows?

As far as "concept musicals" go then, what others would be up there? The Last Five Years would be my choice. That is, if we are to view them seperately.

#46

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 5:18pm

I would say when dealing with Rent or Les Mis. they would be considered through-composed musicals, where there is some talking, and the rest is sung kinda like Caroline, or Change.

I thought it was all a flash in the pan. It wasn't until Broadway came along that I felt I had really made it. -Julie Andrews

#47

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 5:33pm

I would have to disagree about A CHORUS LINE being a concept musical. It's a full-fledged story telling the story of an audition, spanning over one day. COMPANY and THE LAST 5 YEARS are disjointed, but still tell several instances of a story.

"These rabid fans...possess the acting talent to portray the hooker...Linda Eder..." -The New York Times

#48

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 5:47pm

Let's not forget the title of this thread--"Those Perfect shows". This thread isn't specifically about musicals, and while muscle's choices were questionable, he is the only person who mentioned any plays. So, there should be no argument over whether Les Miz and Rent are shows or not. Now, I have to ask, what do you all view as perfect plays?

#49

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 6:00pm

August: Osage County.

#50

Those PERFECT shows?

Posted: 6/7/10 at 6:02pm

I'm a HUGE rent fan, it was the first musical i ever fell in love with...i have seen it twice live and even i agree it is not perfect. there are many parts of it that just don't seem right, but the music and the overall spirit make up for it completely. It may not be perfect, but because it's not, it gives it heart.
i agree that someone's definition of a 'perfect' show can differ from person to person...we're all biased, some way or another.
I would have to say if I could pick the musical that has it all, and that's actually a musical in the true definition of the word, is A CHORUS LINE. It changed Broadway, it's about Broadway, and it's got one of the strongest books IMO. It is what Broadway should be.

"There's a fine, fine line between love...and a waste of your time" (L). Seth Rudetsky is AMAAAHHHZING! A Very Potter Musical FTW!

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