What is the most "looked down upon" Broadway show?- Page 4

[HistoryBoy2]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 12:08pm

'Fraid I'm not from the US and I haven't heard of it. I won't lie though, that sounds hilarious - I'll give it a listen!

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 12:23pm

The problem with that whole experiment, and what HistoryBoy's entire point has been, is that there is a difference between what people like and what is objectively good quality.

[Muhlethaler]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 12:35pm

Updated On: 7/20/18 at 12:35 PM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 12:35pm

Then Yero, please, tell us what is "Objectively good quality."

[HistoryBoy2]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 12:50pm

My point with the Aida reference was to do with character. Zoser is a dignified, ambitious minister, but that isn't at all reflected in the style of music.

As to, as you mention, 'By the Sea' - it's speedy, excited and almost breathless which perfectly captures the excitement Mrs. Lovett feels as she gets caught up in the vision of her future. The music adds to the lyrics in that sense - it focuses and intensifies the emotion of the moment.

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 12:56pm

Then Yero, please, tell us what is "Objectively good quality."

I don't know, I was only pointing out that your use of that experiment did not disprove History Boy's argument because he was making a different point.

I do agree with History Boy that art can be objectively qualified and ranked, which is TOTALLY SEPARATE from personal reaction, but I don't know exactly what those qualifications are and I'm not trying to name them.

Twilight is hugely popular, yet most people (even people I know who enjoy the books) admit that the writing is not good quality.

I was thinking of that when I said that popularity is not the same thing as quality, and that radio experimented asked what people LIKE (popularity) and called it GOOD (quality). There is where I find the error in their experiment.

[Muhlethaler]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:13pm

Updated On: 7/20/18 at 01:13 PM

[HistoryBoy2]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:21pm

"I think that, in a good musical, the music, lyrics and everything else are there to serve the story. They should be used to illustrate the emotion of the piece and carry the narrative."
That was what I was saying. The use of that particular style does not do anything for the story, character or emotion of the moment. I cannot understand why it's there.

One can understand why 'By the Sea' is written as it is (for the reasons I gave). The elements which comprise it serve a function.

As I further clarified earlier, the style does not have to be wholly constrained to the period of the piece - it obviously can deviate as and when the composer sees fit and I believe there should be a deliberate purpose in doing so, not simply whim. My word, none of Aida is period-appropriate, and that's fine! But the fact that a large part of the score is pop and then slips into reggae for that one number seems just capricious.

As to 'Wait' - it doesn't sound like Bossa Nova to me. Unless I'm missing something obvious... Nothing about it strikes me as particular odd or incongruous with the rest of the score.

Updated On: 9/23/10 at 01:21 PM

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:23pm

From History Boy's first post where he mentioned AIDA:

2. Similarly, music that fits the mood or tone and the character in question.
3. (Again repeating myself) Anachronism and incongruity are fine if they're deliberate and done for effect. Unfortunately, you can often spot slapdash work.

...

This could probably be put more succinctly: I think that, in a good musical, the music, lyrics and everything else are there to serve the story. They should be used to illustrate the emotion of the piece and carry the narrative. Not gratuitous, not unnecessarily showy or fancy, but needed. In Aida, 'Another Pyramid' is inexplicably a reggae number. For no identifiable reason other than Elton John wanted to write a reggae song.

Didn't mention character? He pretty clearly stated that the music should fit the period, tone, or character, and that anachronism is fine if it's deliberate and serves a purpose (e.g., Mrs. Lovett's bossa nova numbers).

[Muhlethaler]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:27pm

Updated On: 7/20/18 at 01:27 PM

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:28pm

Sondheim has complained about WAIT and it's bossa nova feel. Don't care. There's something hypnotic about it that plays perfectly in that moment. And what a song!

If you cannot define 'objectively good quality', then how are we supposed to accept that that exists (in the world of art, at least).

The best you can do is build a consensus. With shows like GYPSY and SWEENEY, it seems easy to build a consensus, so it appears that the show is objectively of good quality. The reverse could be said of things like shows like IN MY LIFE and THE RED SHOES (two flops I happened to see). But then you get to a show like CAROLINE, OR CHANGE...a show with no clear consensus. Is it objectively good? Or objectively bad? I think it's the most brilliant piece of music theatre written in the last decade. But others keep saying 'The subject matter doesn't sing!' or 'Why are appliances played by people???'

*edited because I spelled 'consensus' incorrectly many time. Much to my shame. Updated On: 9/23/10 at 01:28 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:32pm

I've conducted Sweeney twice and don't hear a bossa nova in either song.

Bossa has the accents on the second beat and the half beat after 3.

"By the Sea" (generally) has the accents on the first beat and the half beat after 4; "Wait" has the very standard accents on 1 and the half after 2.

Updated On: 9/23/10 at 01:32 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:39pm

"Some musicians think they know better than the audiences."

Sorry, Muhlethaler, but musicians do know more about music than non-musicians. Just as lawyers know more about law than non-lawyers, teachers know more about teaching, etc., etc., etc.

I know this flies in the face of the philosophy held by those who misinterpret "all men are created equal" as meaning "no one is better than anyone else." But it's just the simple truth.

If you want to say, "I don't have a musical education but I know as much about music as someone who does," fine. But that's the point of view of a true dilettante.

[Muhlethaler]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:41pm

Updated On: 7/20/18 at 01:41 PM

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:49pm

I blame Brantley.

[Muhlethaler]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:50pm

Updated On: 7/20/18 at 01:50 PM

[Muhlethaler]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:52pm

Updated On: 7/20/18 at 01:52 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:54pm

Muhle, I can truthfully say that you're the first musician from whom I have heard that point of view.

As Kurt Weill said, "there are only two kinds of music - good music and bad music." And he was one of the most generous of musicians.

[HistoryBoy2]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:54pm

As to 'Wait', Sondheim was happy to have it cut from the film version not, as you say, because he disliked it, but because, as you also say, it was ill-fitting. He was able to separate the song itself from the piece as a whole and saw that it was for the benefit of the latter's quality to remove it.

But that's a small point.

You say you can talk about musical quality. That is exactly what I'm saying can be done. I'm not dictating what everyone should enjoy, I'm simply suggesting that this quality can be sensibly and evaluatively discussed.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:55pm

"But you assertion that Mrs. Lovett's Bossa Nova numbers are deliberate and serve a purpose is an opinion. Get it?"

Well...no. I would argue that those are facts. If Sondheim deliberately wrote with a samba feel for those numbers for an express purpose, then that's a fact. We could verify this by asking directly to Sondheim, 'Did you deliberately create a Latin feel for an express purpose?' Then he would give us a yes or no and, hopefully, what the purpose was.

[Muhlethaler]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:56pm

Updated On: 7/20/18 at 01:56 PM

[Muhlethaler]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:57pm

HistoryBoy, "Wait" is in the movie.

[newintown]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:58pm

Ahh, Muhle, muhle, muhle - ridiculous unsupported insults like "you clearly don't know about Bossa Nova" carry no weight.

And yes, my definition of the bossa nova is correct. If you have some arcane theory about what you think the bossa is, have at it. But hit and run snarking is just a juvenile waste of time.

[Muhlethaler]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:59pm

Updated On: 8/31/11 at 01:59 PM

[HistoryBoy2]

Posted: 9/23/10 at 1:59pm

^ I know it is, but he stated he could happily cut it.
And something doesn't remain opinion until it's proven. That's just untrue.