What is the most "looked down upon" Broadway show? — Page 2

The older I get, the more I come to realize that Stoppard's 'cricket bat' speech is just bullSH*T.

I can argue for GYPSY's brilliance (or SITP) and against WICKED all I want. Fact is, it's just my best guess at what is good. It's still an argument...not actually a fact.

I saw CATS with a friend well over a decade into its run. It was an absolute mess. Everything was sloppy. But I do find it intersting to think on what was actually happening on opening night that made a connection with people.

I find it very, very difficult to argue that something that is so wildly successful is 'bad'. I mean...I hated it. I own that...but I just don't know how I can assert in the face of all the people who loved it or were moved by it that it is, in fact, 'not good'. I mean...who the F*CK am I?

"Insane" is a touch melodramatic.

Things I think can be found in a good musical:
1. (As I said before) Carefully thought-out lyrics appropriate to the character and situation.
2. Similarly, music that fits the mood or tone and the character in question.
3. (Again repeating myself) Anachronism and incongruity are fine if they're deliberate and done for effect. Unfortunately, you can often spot slapdash work.
4. Choreography that helps in some way to tell the story and isn't just there to be there.
5. Donna Murphy

This could probably be put more succinctly: I think that, in a good musical, the music, lyrics and everything else are there to serve the story. They should be used to illustrate the emotion of the piece and carry the narrative. Not gratuitous, not unnecessarily showy or fancy, but needed. In Aida, 'Another Pyramid' is inexplicably a reggae number. For no identifiable reason other than Elton John wanted to write a reggae song.
On the other hand, the music of Ragtime reflects the period and is wholly apt for the characters.

And I just love me some Donna Murphy.

Updated On: 9/22/10 at 03:50 PM

OK. Let's get to work.

West Side Story is empirically a bad musical. Sondheim himself has said several times his lyrics are completely inappropriate to the show.

Hair is certainly a bad musical. The songs often seem assigned to a character randomly and can be removed or rearranged without changing the show. I guess you'd have to include Cabaret in that category too as every production I've seen changes the tune stack.

As for Choreography- I'd put every show with a dream ballet in the "Bad" category: Oklahoma and Carousel particularly are Bad Musicals.

And Donna Murphy? I've never seen her give a performance I didn't think could be handled with more nuance and grace by a trained chimp so I'll just pass on that one.

A show can have good and bad aspects.
As you say, Sondheim is not a fan of his own lyrics for West Side Story. However, the choreography is outstanding and the music very effective.

I agree with you - much as I enjoy Hair, I think it's a complete mess.
Cabaret, is a harder one. I think a lot of productions get it wrong, but that doesn't mean the material is inherently terrible. If done right, it can be great.

As I said above, just because a musical as one or two dodgy moments doesn't make the whole bushel rotten, as it were.

By the way, your snarky delineation into just good and just bad is extremist. Of course there are some decent shows, some mediocre ones, some incredible ones and some appalling ones. To go black or white is simplistic.

EDIT: 'All I Need is the Girl' is, as I'm sure you know, divisive in its way. There are many who say it slows the narrative and is completely unnecessary. I disagree, but even the fact that this can be discussed is interesting. It's almost (dare I say something so odd) a subjective take on objectivity. It's two different views on whether something should be there for the objective benefit of the piece.

Updated On: 9/22/10 at 04:06 PM

>I will say, though, that History Boy's criteria really only applies to the book musical that existed post-Oklahoma. Before, many musicals had completely disconnected books and scores, only because that's what musical theatre was then. <
This is a very good point. What's come to be expected from a musical has changed greatly over time.

I don't understand your post, sorry. Where did I contradict myself?

"Cabaret, is a harder one. I think a lot of productions get it wrong, but that doesn't mean the material is inherently terrible. If done right, it can be great.

As I said above, just because a musical as one or two dodgy moments doesn't make the whole bushel rotten, as it were.

By the way, your snarky delineation into just good and just bad is extremist. Of course there are some decent shows, some mediocre ones, some incredible ones and some appalling ones. To go black or white is simplistic."

Do you understand what a fact is? Do you understand what an opinion is? So what is the definition for a "mediocre" show? How do we determine what choreography is unnecessary?

"1. (As I said before) Carefully thought-out lyrics appropriate to the character and situation.
2. Similarly, music that fits the mood or tone and the character in question."

But according to whom? Who is deciding what is carefully-thought out? Or what fits the mood? It's still utterly subjective. Perhaps Sondheim no longer thinks his lyrics for West Side Story are 'good'. I'd be glad to argue with him face to face otherwise.

Do I believe that there are good, great, bad, awful or whatever else musicals? Absolutely. And I can argue that to high heaven. But, I'll always be aware that it's just my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Joe! You say "if it was so easy to write a book as popular as "the DaVinci code" Gore would have done it years ago!"

Come now - you must know that to some people, their art is much more important than behemoth-style popular success. Look at novelists like Louis Auchincloss, Dawn Powell, Julian Barnes - they write/wrote stunning books that are appreciated by a fraction of the number of the crowd who read books with Oprah's imprimatur.

If you don't like Gore, just say so; but the man and his quote are brilliant.

Updated On: 9/22/10 at 04:53 PM

"they write/wrote stunning books that are appreciated by a fraction of the number of the crowd who read books with Oprah's imprimatur."

You mean like Jason Robert Brown's PARADE?

And of course someone can (and should) say a show is good. Just be ready to argue it, because there will ALWAYS be someone who will tell you you're wrong.

Parade I can take or leave. I like some parts of it, and got bored a lot of the evening.

I don't know if I would compare the novelists I mentioned (or Vidal), each of whom have created a much larger body of examined work than Brown has, to JRB at this early stage in his career. Maybe when he has come closer to the scope of their achievements.

Is there a musical theatre creator who had - let's say - 20 separate pieces produced in his/her lifetime, none of which were a huge hit? that would be a valid comparison.

Art is purely subjective. What makes a good show or a bad show will differ from person to person. It is all a matter of opinion. I believe this is the first and only time I have ever agreed with JoeKv99. He has hit the nail on the head. History Boy is trying to argue opinions as facts, and it simply does not work in an argument.
There are many musicals that very esteemed theatre people find to be very good, that I think are terrible. West Side Story, for example; I find it to be long, rather dull, far too dance heavy, and a bit pretentious. I am also intelligent enough to understand that this is just my own opinion about a piece of art, and that many others find it to be amazing, and that the choreography quickly moves the piece along.
The Seagull is often regarded as the perfect play by theatre scholars, but there are still many scholars who will argue that point. There are volumes in libraries that are devoted just to that topic.
The same goes for Gypsy, often said to be the perfectly written musical. Just because people say it is, does not make it true. This does not make it true, it cannot be proven, as it is only a matter of opinion.

Well, it doesn't seem like a case you are winning, but a bit more of that law school there and you may persuade us.