#26
Posted: 11/15/03 at 12:29am
Just because you think it is crap does not mean it is "crap."
CCM '10!
Who Comes Up This Crap? — Page 2
#28
Posted: 11/15/03 at 8:06am
""But SHOW BUSINESS used to produce really fantastic shows. Now the great shows are few and far between. What happened? Have tastes deteriorated so greatly?""
huh????????? Sunfish, your above statement has me baffled. Perhaps you should read a bit more about the theater. There have always been lots more awful show than good shows, let alone great shows.
Out of the thousands of shows that have opened on Broadway, we can probably name the "great" ones in under a minute. Your question "what happened" is strange. This is simply the way it is and has always been.:)
huh????????? Sunfish, your above statement has me baffled. Perhaps you should read a bit more about the theater. There have always been lots more awful show than good shows, let alone great shows.
Out of the thousands of shows that have opened on Broadway, we can probably name the "great" ones in under a minute. Your question "what happened" is strange. This is simply the way it is and has always been.:)
"MAY YOUR LIFE BE AS BRIGHT AS BROADWAY AT NIGHT"
Updated On: 11/15/03 at 08:06 AM
#29
Posted: 11/15/03 at 8:23am
I was hoping Musicman would weigh in here, and I must say, he nailed this one.
This collective sigh and head-shaking that accompanies "where's the next Sondheim?" isn't being balanced with any serious investment in a forum to find such a lad or lassie. We have things like the Fringe Festival every year, when raw, sometimes cobbled together pieces are swooped down upon by folks with $$, and the show with the highest "concept" gets attention,not necessarily the one that demonstrates the most talent. I'm not going to discuss "Urinetown" here, but for every one of those there's something like "Debbie..." Last summer the hottest musical in the festival was a "boy bands" concept musical, the score a pastiche of N'Sync songs. Sondheim used Kern and Weill for FOLLIES pastiche. Now, we raid N'Sync and Backstreet boys. Serious b'way producers circled that show, by the way. Make of that what you will.
Please, I understand the v. positive value of the Fringe -- raw works deserve to be seen, I do get it -- so don't beat me up. It's how it's so quickly evolved into something like a suburban craft fair and exploited by the producing community that's disturbing.
This collective sigh and head-shaking that accompanies "where's the next Sondheim?" isn't being balanced with any serious investment in a forum to find such a lad or lassie. We have things like the Fringe Festival every year, when raw, sometimes cobbled together pieces are swooped down upon by folks with $$, and the show with the highest "concept" gets attention,not necessarily the one that demonstrates the most talent. I'm not going to discuss "Urinetown" here, but for every one of those there's something like "Debbie..." Last summer the hottest musical in the festival was a "boy bands" concept musical, the score a pastiche of N'Sync songs. Sondheim used Kern and Weill for FOLLIES pastiche. Now, we raid N'Sync and Backstreet boys. Serious b'way producers circled that show, by the way. Make of that what you will.
Please, I understand the v. positive value of the Fringe -- raw works deserve to be seen, I do get it -- so don't beat me up. It's how it's so quickly evolved into something like a suburban craft fair and exploited by the producing community that's disturbing.
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling
Updated On: 11/15/03 at 08:23 AM
#30
Posted: 11/15/03 at 8:49am
Auggie, you've outlined one of the major symptons of the deteriorating musical theatre world in NYC, in my opinion. Namely, there are no producers. A theatrical producer to me will always be a lady or gentlemen of the theatre who can read a play or musical on a page, or hear a sample of the score-in-progress, and see the possibilities then proceed to produce with the courage of their own convictions. Today those that call themselves producers are more often than not middlemen who have insinuated themselves into a process without any true regard for the end product merely the end profit. Events like fringe festivals are industry trade shows where these so-called producers come to shop, most often at the expense of the artists who have had to scrape and further in-debt themselves to mount their show in these fairs. Some of the bunch that call themselves producers even provide some financial support to mount a show in which they might have some interest into these festivals. This to them is an inexpensive way to gauge the response to the piece--not the audience response but the press response. Again the mentality that only proven existing-market theatre is the only theatre worth producing. The most common response from today's producers is something along the line of, "let me know when it's being done somewhere so I can see it." That is what is killing the American musical.
Yours for a better Broadway!
Yours for a better Broadway!
#31
Posted: 11/15/03 at 12:43pm
ok so for whatever reason i wasn’t sleeping and the topic was bothering me so i decided to do a little research. here’s what Iicame up with…
in the 1962-63 broadway season 61 shows opened and 58 closed
in the 1972-73 broadway season 58 shows opened and 61 closed
in the 1982-83 broadway season 55 shows opened and 50 closed
in the 1992-93 broadway season 36 shows opened and 40 closed
in the 2002-03 broadway season 41 shows opened and 48 closed
between 1982-83 and 1992-92 there’s a 35% drop-off in shows opening. now i was raring to disagree with bulldog’s comment about les miz and it’s ilk, but something happened in there to broadway and guess whose shows were dominating things then not to mention any names, alw and cameron.
but i guess the point i wanted to make was that with that many fewer shows being done, it’s that much harder to find the next sondheim or r&h or whoever. public fare has always been out there and original ideas have frankly been few and far between. but lately that’s because it’s too darn expensive to do. When folks could get together a group of investors to pony up $4g or 5g with the expectation that they might make it back in a few months, it was a lot easier to attract investors. with production costs what they are, it’s practically impossible to do a musical on broadway for less than $5M. that’s real money. and you either need a lot more small investors which makes for a whole lotta cooks, one big one which makes for a tremendous opportunity to swing for the fences and lose your shirt or corporate sponsorship and it’s generally cookie cutter ideas.
that’s not even to mention tickets costs. $101.25? $480? if i’m paying that, i want the sun the moon and the stars and i want them there everynight, not just on weekends.
what’s the answer? i agree with bulldog that it would be great to have real producers, but a show is and always has been a risky proposition. there’s no accounting for the public taste whether you agree with them or not, they’re fickle and always have been. it’s been an adage since long before i was born that you can’t make a living in show business, but you can make a killing.
in the 1962-63 broadway season 61 shows opened and 58 closed
in the 1972-73 broadway season 58 shows opened and 61 closed
in the 1982-83 broadway season 55 shows opened and 50 closed
in the 1992-93 broadway season 36 shows opened and 40 closed
in the 2002-03 broadway season 41 shows opened and 48 closed
between 1982-83 and 1992-92 there’s a 35% drop-off in shows opening. now i was raring to disagree with bulldog’s comment about les miz and it’s ilk, but something happened in there to broadway and guess whose shows were dominating things then not to mention any names, alw and cameron.
but i guess the point i wanted to make was that with that many fewer shows being done, it’s that much harder to find the next sondheim or r&h or whoever. public fare has always been out there and original ideas have frankly been few and far between. but lately that’s because it’s too darn expensive to do. When folks could get together a group of investors to pony up $4g or 5g with the expectation that they might make it back in a few months, it was a lot easier to attract investors. with production costs what they are, it’s practically impossible to do a musical on broadway for less than $5M. that’s real money. and you either need a lot more small investors which makes for a whole lotta cooks, one big one which makes for a tremendous opportunity to swing for the fences and lose your shirt or corporate sponsorship and it’s generally cookie cutter ideas.
that’s not even to mention tickets costs. $101.25? $480? if i’m paying that, i want the sun the moon and the stars and i want them there everynight, not just on weekends.
what’s the answer? i agree with bulldog that it would be great to have real producers, but a show is and always has been a risky proposition. there’s no accounting for the public taste whether you agree with them or not, they’re fickle and always have been. it’s been an adage since long before i was born that you can’t make a living in show business, but you can make a killing.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#32
Posted: 11/15/03 at 12:53pm
bestofbroadway You do your self no favours with your nasty attitude.
Have you seen Jerry Springer or Taboo ? I would not mention them in the same breath as Mamma Mia.. they are original pieces of musical theatre not a second rate attempt to sandwich a back catlogue into a story line.
Jerry is a very original inteligent piece that truly deserves to be the hit it is here... I loved Taboo in London - it had a lot of lovely songs and stunning performances... I don't know what it is like in New York with a with an attempted Broadway friendly book but I do know the songs are first rate..
If you don't like the things being produced write your own musical.
Have you seen Jerry Springer or Taboo ? I would not mention them in the same breath as Mamma Mia.. they are original pieces of musical theatre not a second rate attempt to sandwich a back catlogue into a story line.
Jerry is a very original inteligent piece that truly deserves to be the hit it is here... I loved Taboo in London - it had a lot of lovely songs and stunning performances... I don't know what it is like in New York with a with an attempted Broadway friendly book but I do know the songs are first rate..
If you don't like the things being produced write your own musical.
#33
Broadway Bulldog, when producers tell you, "let me know when it's being done somewhere so I can see it," what they're really saying is, "In addition to being a gutless moron, I
have a staggering lack of imagination and vision and don't even know how to READ a play with any discernment, let alone make judgements on its merits."
Business as usual.
Posted: 11/15/03 at 12:58pm
Broadway Bulldog, when producers tell you, "let me know when it's being done somewhere so I can see it," what they're really saying is, "In addition to being a gutless moron, I
have a staggering lack of imagination and vision and don't even know how to READ a play with any discernment, let alone make judgements on its merits."
Business as usual.
#34
Posted: 11/15/03 at 1:05pm
I guess it's just a matter of taste. I saw Jerry Springer when I was in London a month ago and I thought it was T-R-A-S-H much like the show it is based on. I guess I shouldn't talk about Taboo when I haven't seen it yet, but I don't plan on seeing it any time soon and based on the reviews, etc. it sounds like T-R-A-S-H.
#35
Posted: 11/15/03 at 1:14pm
I have a friend who saw Jerry Springer recently. He says it's worse than Mamma Mia if you can imagine that :O
#36
Posted: 11/15/03 at 1:15pm
"If you don't like the things being produced, write your own musical."
That's an absurd argument, leeinlondon. It's not the responsibility of audiences to do the work of producers and writers. They're already doing their job: THEY BUY THE TICKETS. It's a gesture of good faith and more often than not, that compact is broken by what ends up on the stage. The real response is "If you don't like the things being produced, don't support their crap and save your money." And if the lyrics from JERRY SPRINGER quoted elsewhere on the board ("if you are dead and lying beneath the grass/I'll dig you up and **** you in the ass") are an indication of the rest of the show, you can bet your ****ing ass I'll do just that.
That's an absurd argument, leeinlondon. It's not the responsibility of audiences to do the work of producers and writers. They're already doing their job: THEY BUY THE TICKETS. It's a gesture of good faith and more often than not, that compact is broken by what ends up on the stage. The real response is "If you don't like the things being produced, don't support their crap and save your money." And if the lyrics from JERRY SPRINGER quoted elsewhere on the board ("if you are dead and lying beneath the grass/I'll dig you up and **** you in the ass") are an indication of the rest of the show, you can bet your ****ing ass I'll do just that.
Updated On: 11/15/03 at 01:15 PM
#37
Posted: 11/15/03 at 1:27pm
Are those really the lyrics from the score?
Things are worse than I thought. I almost went to see it while in London a couple of weeks ago because it was talked about. On reflection I said, "what am I doing?" I find Springer and what he stands for offensive and responsible for a degeneration of society in general, why should I support that by seeing this show no matter how remotely related. So I didn't.
People who resort to profanity and shock language aren't lyricists. Anyone can rhyme words.
This must be all about shock the audience, with no quality. We've seen that before.
Bulldog.
Things are worse than I thought. I almost went to see it while in London a couple of weeks ago because it was talked about. On reflection I said, "what am I doing?" I find Springer and what he stands for offensive and responsible for a degeneration of society in general, why should I support that by seeing this show no matter how remotely related. So I didn't.
People who resort to profanity and shock language aren't lyricists. Anyone can rhyme words.
This must be all about shock the audience, with no quality. We've seen that before.
Bulldog.
#38
Posted: 11/15/03 at 1:42pm
And if I did write my own musical you name one producer who would produce it? Lippa, LaChuisa, Jason Robert Brown and many other great composers can't even get there work produced on Broadway because it isn't what "today's audience wants to see." All I have to say is Bull****.
#39
Posted: 11/15/03 at 1:43pm
Well there is a fair selection of comedy shock lyrics in Jerry Springer.. it reflects the interests and attitudes of the people on the show.. but it is so much more than that. It about society where the aspirations of many people are talking about their sex lives or revealing other taudry secrets in exchange for their 15 minutes of fame... It is also a satire on religion in the second half..
However if you are closed minded and write a show off because you see a lyric that offends you then stick with the bland safe boring theatre that you deserve.
However if you are closed minded and write a show off because you see a lyric that offends you then stick with the bland safe boring theatre that you deserve.
#40
Everything you mention as the concerns of JERRY SPRINGER has, in one aspect or another, been the subject of social satire in literature, films, television and theater for about, oh, thirty years or so now.
Talk about safe.
Posted: 11/15/03 at 2:22pm
Everything you mention as the concerns of JERRY SPRINGER has, in one aspect or another, been the subject of social satire in literature, films, television and theater for about, oh, thirty years or so now.
Talk about safe.
#41
Posted: 11/15/03 at 2:40pm
musicman i'd be interested in hearing what you think would make for edgy hip topical material for a new broadway musical.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#42
Posted: 11/15/03 at 2:43pm
>It contintues to get worse because idiotic and robotic theatre >goers can't decide for themselves.
...or maybe they [are] deciding for themselves but they just don't like what [you] think they should like!
...or maybe they [are] deciding for themselves but they just don't like what [you] think they should like!
"Now and then life hits you on the back of the head with a sock full of wet porridge. How you handle that is up to you." - Tim Rice
#43
Posted: 11/15/03 at 2:45pm
I'll state the obvious. Edgy, topical and hip almost always closes on Saturday night. It becomes dated old news fast. Every day each of us gets a day older. Today's hip news is tomorrow's old news. The trick is to be universal.
Bulldog.
Bulldog.
#44
Posted: 11/15/03 at 2:47pm
>Can you imagine the level of a mind that watches wrestling?"
>And so it goes.
I would imagine the same sort of people who watch action movies (i.e., Bond or Indiana Jones et. al.) for the fight scenes. (Unless they think it's real! Which I'm certain some do.)
>And so it goes.
I would imagine the same sort of people who watch action movies (i.e., Bond or Indiana Jones et. al.) for the fight scenes. (Unless they think it's real! Which I'm certain some do.)
"Now and then life hits you on the back of the head with a sock full of wet porridge. How you handle that is up to you." - Tim Rice
#45
Posted: 11/15/03 at 2:51pm
And next your going to tell me that Hairspray is a deep meaningful show about racism and self identity...please.
#46
Posted: 11/15/03 at 3:33pm
You're ve misread my posts, Papalovesmambo. I'm not advocating "hip" or "edgy"--those are just buzz words used by producers, critics, and journalists. Too often, today's "innovations," a so-called new species, turn out be tomorrow's aberrations, a three-headed cow, useless to everybody. And that's pretty much the state of the arts in general these days. There's a sense that all our forms have been exhausted. They've been deconstructed and semioticized and overanalyzed into a dead-end. In such a time, I feel artists must return to the wellspring of their humanity, the timely and timeless "stuff" of myth, and drink deep from its source. The endless cycle of birth, death and renewal, love and sacrifice, power and pride are the fundamental bedrock of human endeavor and experience. If we're going to build audiences in the future, it is these universal stories with their eternal verities that must be told. The tricky part is in the execution. And here I'll quote from Fellini: " To make an interesting picture for a few people is relatively easy. To make a bad picture for a lot of people is very easy. The great thing, the great problem, and the most interesting and new approach in art, is to try and make great things for the greatest amount of people."
So,to sum it all up, papalovesmambo, let me just say:
I'm working on it.
So,to sum it all up, papalovesmambo, let me just say:
I'm working on it.
#47
Posted: 11/15/03 at 3:40pm
now musicman that was a post that i can both admire and respect and i don't think i noticed even a trace of a smirk anywhere. 
keep plugging away.
keep plugging away.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#48
Posted: 11/15/03 at 3:54pm
This is an educational thread.
It's interesting how even within this thread there are various levels of intellect, starting at the bottom with those who apparently can't accept their opinions being criticized and only explain with attacks. It raises from there. Just like real life.
This is so much fun!
Yours for a better Broadway!
It's interesting how even within this thread there are various levels of intellect, starting at the bottom with those who apparently can't accept their opinions being criticized and only explain with attacks. It raises from there. Just like real life.
This is so much fun!
Yours for a better Broadway!
#49
Posted: 11/15/03 at 4:14pm
Again, our initial poster is deciding whether or not a musical is 'T-R-A-S-H' based on what he thinks it's probably like or what he's 'heard.' He then goes on to decry the same behavior in 'audiences' (thus perpetuating the typical theatergoer pretension that some theater goers are too good to be part of the 'audience' and are part of an elite artistic community) for just going to shows they'll probably like based on what they've heard from on other people.
Interesting, if nothing else.
As for the quality of theater, like any commercial art, the crap will outweigh the gold. Unfortunately there's not enough interest in theater to take the time and money and energy to see what's good and what isn't. Broadway NEEDS hits to survive, whereas film is a form of entertainment that all people accept and, thus, has enough people attending to allow for different levels of success and artistic aspiration. On Broadway, it just has to sell.
Interesting, if nothing else.
As for the quality of theater, like any commercial art, the crap will outweigh the gold. Unfortunately there's not enough interest in theater to take the time and money and energy to see what's good and what isn't. Broadway NEEDS hits to survive, whereas film is a form of entertainment that all people accept and, thus, has enough people attending to allow for different levels of success and artistic aspiration. On Broadway, it just has to sell.
#50
Posted: 11/15/03 at 5:04pm
What do you mean bestofbroadway...Hairspray changed my life...not
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