THE STAGE HANDS ARE BULLIES- Page 7

[JRybka]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:03pm

Brilliant Sarcasm...

Last time I checked we were allowed to voice opinions.

This is my feeling and my opinion and you can take it or leave it.

[localonecrew]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:04pm

i guess spelling isnt part of a masters program.

i totally believe that you have a masters. really, i do. really.

your eloquent writing skills and mastery of punctuation and spelling are a testament to the truth that you have a masters.

[JRybka]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:07pm

Maybe Local One can picket this too.. the mispelling of some pissed off people. Show me one person on this message board who has NEVER mispelled anything.

[Lynnespock2]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:12pm

First off, misspelling TWO S!

Second of all, having a Master's degree does not make anyone less ignorant on all accounts, just more educated about their area of study. Thirdly, never confuse book knowledge with common sense. Of all the things that are common, sense is the least.

[localonecrew]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:14pm

"is that all you have to say localone? That;s it? Just calling me ingnorant? Funny I am sure my masters at a college would beg to differ with you. "


i mean really, look at the quoted text. it's hilarious!

[JRybka]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:15pm

Thanks Lynne...

My comment about smarts is that I have a masters but that does not mean I am any smarter then anyone else. But when someone says I am ignorant or stupid then I take offence to that. I may not be the best speller but then again... I never did like the 25th Annual Putman Spelling Bee.

[Lynnespock2]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:18pm

I just agree with local one and justaguy. Offence is the British version of the word; offense if the American English spelling.

Updated On: 11/12/07 at 09:18 PM

[JRybka]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:35pm

Maybe you should be my spelling guru. Seriously-- my spelling sucks!

[localonecrew]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:40pm

dont forget syntax and punctuation usage. they suck too.

[JRybka]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:45pm

you know localone.. I actually was nice to you in another post. Kind-a sucks you just have to continue to be rude about what is my opinion.

And maybe you should be a teacher instead of a crew member....

[Lynnespock2]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:50pm

JR: are you inferring that teachers are rude? I sincerely hope not!

[JRybka]

Posted: 11/12/07 at 9:53pm

No I mean to say was that with all his critical attacks on my spelling,syntax and language that he should have been a teacher. Maybe English.....

And my sister and mother were both teachers (and as pissed off as they would be with my spelling) they are amazing people who did and do deserve much more then they are being paid.

[leko2]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 2:48am

seeing as JR feels like talking still i'll respond to their comments:

One: Did I ever say that I never help out other departments with their work? No. I merely asked why should I do another person's job for them. I am all about helping other departments when they ask me for my help, but it is not my responsibility to do their jobs for them.

Two: Yes the first amendment does in fact guarantee your right to freedom of speech, but it does not allow your to commit slander and libel nor does it allow for you to incite a riot.

Five: You have yet again missed the point of my questions. I know many people that can play 20 different instruments. But musicians are not required to play 20 different instruments in a pit. Why should stagehands be required to do 20 different jobs?

Seven: Teachers do receive awards. Let me give you a little list:

*National Techers Hall of Fame
*The Golden Apple Awards for Excelence in Teaching
*Miliken Family Foundation-National Educator Awards
*USA All Star Teacher Awards
*ING Unsung Heroes Award
*The NEA Foundation Award for Teaching Excellence
*American Stars of Teaching Award - US Department of Education
*The Teaching Awards

Policemen constantly receive commendations for their service.

And now, to answer to my questions, which you seemed to not have any answers for. In 1948 George Gebhardt was the first person to recieve the Stage Technician Tony Award. In 1963 Solly Pernick was the final recipient of this award.

Nine: Ellen DeGeneres, the Executive Producer of the Ellen DeGeneres show, crossed a picket line and she was harassed, not assaulted, by angry picketers. If Ellen cared so much about her writers as she claims she would honor them and agree to let them work on her show under the contract that they want. As for knowing "PLENTY OF PICKET LINES that could go violent at the drop of a hat," many high school and college kids can go violent at the drop of a hat, but somehow there are not that many reports of it happening. Why? Maybe they have self control? Or maybe no one is trying to provoke them.

Ten: If you agree with what I'm saying then you should keep your opinion to yourself. These contract negotiations are a private matter between the League, Local One, and the General Offices of IATSE. While you are allowed to your opinion, the lack of knowledge about this industry that you possess may just make you look pretty uneducated.

[Tkt2Ride]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 6:00am

JRYbka-

It is just your logic is a little sideways.

How do you get your job done if you are busy doing someone else's? Sometimes I would help out but only in an emergency because I had other work to do. Not though without some benefit in the long run. I wouldn't do something like that for any real length of time. That's not just cross training, it's just dumb. Especially if it is not compensated with a higher wage. What Manager do you know works the books, scheduling and the office for the same wages as an office worker? A very foolish one that won't be holding that job for very long because they have proven to be a bad business Manager. Also, when the air conditioner breaks down, do you get up and fix that also? Handy girl to have around! Do you input payroll as well? I mean, while answering the phone, making appts. and covering security?

If you are doing all of that for peanuts then again, the Producers really want to speak to you! You can switch from Piano to Tuba and back again but can you play them together? Now that is some talent. Why are you working some Govt. job?

All reputable Colleges require Teachers to have a Master's Degree. I hope all of your masters have degrees! Mine did! Not sure what you mean by that statement?

The point is that no one on the stage is going to have a stagehand in their dressing room to iron their wardrobe or help them with costume changes. I am not going into all the other stuff that goes on there but think about this seriously please? I read that if they handle props in a professional production they get extra pay.

Most of the time you cannot do two jobs at once. Not if you want to do your job well. These are technical jobs. Please get real. Only a really foolish person works as a Teacher and Vice Principal together. I know, those bleeding hearts who work themselves into an early grave. Such an asset to the company because usually you can't do both jobs well at the same time. When the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing stmh . here folks!

You are a corporate dream come true. All work and little pay. It explains perhaps why your Sister makes so little money. Teachers in my State fare much better but the cost of living is high here. Unfortunately, if you work for so little, you will forever be struggling to make ends meet. You may never own your own home. If you have a spouse, of course, you can afford to work for a lot less but by doing so you are keeping down the standard of living so many others are trying to hold up.

Some people dream of something better. With a little bit more so much good can be done as well. These people are working a lot of overtime. Overtime is the real killer of any budget. All I can see by their statements from Local One is that they are short handed. They are working hard. Too hard considering the physical labor they perform. I personally don't want to see people suffer or end up in an early grave.

I can see quite clearly that there is a serious labor shortage in this field of work and expecting people who are working 80hrs a week to do even more is ridiculous.

Telling people to clock out but not go home or requiring them to clock back in a few hours later because of an unexpected work stoppage is really unreasonable. It is not common business practice either.

I would like to hear what the Fire Marshals have to say about cutting back on qualified stagehands? Is this even legal? It sure doesn't sound like it at all to me.

[UnionMade]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 9:38am

jr
with your masters degree you should know the difference between someone calling a person "ignorant of a subject" and just plan "ignorant", but even though you have no reason to be emotionally invested in this you seem to find a way to take offense to anything. As to which of the two I categories I put you in, I previously would have labeled you the former. Now you are working your way toward the latter.
And to all my other UNION brothers, do not let those that should not be as emotionally invested in this get to you. I know it is hard to stay strictly informative and keep from being negative. Let the slanderers have their negativity if it helps them sleep at night. Stay strong, stay united, and stay gentleman/women.
In Solidarity,
UnionMade

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 10:07am

"To anyone bringing up IA workers doing non-AEA tours I have two words for you that describe the exact opposite of that.


OFF BROADWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Game over...................."

The off-Broadway house in which I work employs a Local One crew. We were actually unsure if we'd have performances because the crew said they may be called to join the picket lines in solidarity. So what's your point.

As for the rest of you...I get it. You have a different point of view that I have when it comes to IATSE's support of Equity First Nationals. And that's all good. But when was the last time Local One's health benefits were decimated the way Equity's were? They may very well have been...I just am unaware.

Do what you have to do. I'd never cross a picket line.

Updated On: 11/14/07 at 10:07 AM

[AvenueQPat]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 10:44am

I just wanted to put in my 2 cents because I am still on the fence about "who is being greedy" - as a lot of people have mentioned on this board - NOT EVERYONE - but a lot of people. And I am gonna put in some questions too because I am a musician (AFM) and I would love to understand more of these things for myself.

One: If I am hired to be an electrician for a show, it is not my job to move scenery, props, dress actors, or do someone's hair and makeup. I don't know many office workers or doctors who also clean the bathrooms, wash the windows, and vacuum the for the places that they work. The same thing goes in theater. If I am hired to do one job why should I be required to do two?

Agreed. You mentioned in a later post that you don't mind helping other people with their jobs - but it isn't your job to do them. That makes sense - I don't mind helping out with setting up a drum set once in a while after my work is done - but it isn't fair to be told that I have to do it every day - because it isn't my instrument, or my specialty.

Two: Only one person brought up the fact that until this past weekend in 121 years Local One has never struck. The actors and musicians have both struck on numerous occasions and Local One has stood with them regardless of their views of the matter. So can all the "union actors and musicians" just cut the crap. If you don't agree with the strike that's fine, just don't fuel the fire. The elected officials in your union have publicly stated that you support the strike, if you have a problem with it let them know. Who knows, enough people might contact them and that'll be enough for them to distance themselves from it. Which brings me to another great point.

I think everybody has a right to their opinions of the strike and shouldn't need to "cut the crap". I am pretty sure that isn't meant in a bitter way - it's your opinion. Thats fine. What is hard for me to understand is why the union is not currently going to the table when the League wants to sit down and talk. If they (IATSE) are waiting for the Producers to lose some money, it is going to take a while with their reserves - and (I mentioned this a while ago) - what is to stop the League from hiring non-union stagehands that are trained properly and how long will AEA and AFM support a long term strike. I know it takes a lot of work to make a show run smoothly - BUT I have worked with non-union stage hands who have done a kick ass job with their productions. I am not saying hire out "illegal immigrants" as I saw posted on another thread - but skilled professionals who already do this work for a living - and train them for the theater and show they are doing. (Sorry this one got a little off topic - but I still don't have a real answer for this.)

Three: If you are mad that you do not, allegedly, make as much as a Local One stagehand then tell your union! They negotiate your contract and set your minimums. It is their job to get your what it wants. If the AEA membership wants $6000 a week for an ensemble role, then AEA should be fighting for it until they get it. If the membership wants to be allowed to do non-legit shows so that you can pay your bills and feed your family, then they need to propose a rule change and lobby for it to be done.

Agreed - If the union is doing Collective Bargaining they should fight for what they want - but also be prepared that those wants may be rejected.

Four: Yes actors do move scenery and props from time to time. Do you know that they are required to be paid extra for any moves that they have to do? I bet most of you didn't know that or just didn't want to point it out because it hurts your argument.

When musicians need to be on stage or in costume - they also get paid extra. I think that is kind of silly myself, BUT lets be honest. We do a lot of hard work and bring skills into the production just like any other performer or crew member does. If the Producers want something extra - they should be expected to pay for it.

Five: Yes some musicians do play multiple instruments during a show. But, can anyone tell me how many violins play the tuba? Or how many percussionists are playing the bass clarinet? Does the harp player also play the trombone?

I think some of the League jobs can probably be combined in the same way the musicians are in a similar field. I think they should be paid for their "doubles" and the other jobs that they do - but I for one would not hire an extra musician for a show to play 32 bars on a bass clarinet. I would either cut it or find a reed player to double it.

Six: Let's talk about this dreaded flyman. A lot of people have mentioned that the flyman does nothing on shows that don't have different backdrops or a curtain. Well, that's not entirely true. While a show may not have "working" pieces that doesn't mean that things don't need to move during pre/postshow. Part of the flyman's job is to inspect the rigging and make sure nothing has changed and that everything in the air is still the way it should be. Anything can happen after you leave a place for a prolonged period of time. You need someone there to check and make sure no one has come in and moved any of the "non-working" pieces. Having an electric baton one foot off it's spike can ruin an entire effect which could be monumental to the production of the show. And also, what is this BS about electric winches flying pipes in? A lot of these theaters were built a long time ago before this technology was available. Theater owners don't want to spend money to upgrade the building unless they have to so I'm going to say that I doubt many theaters have this technology in it. And another thing, a lot of these shows are so tightly hung and so precise that anything nonworking is dead hanged from the grid. In the event that it's a dead hang, you could have 1000 flymen on the call, they still can't fly the pipe in.

OK - Lets say a show has no fly cues. How often does the person inspecting need to be in the theater, and do they get a comparable salary to someone running the cues all the time? If they need to be there for 30 minutes to inspect then leave and are getting the same pay - it needs to be cut back - OR they need to stay at the theater for the entire show nightly and be prepared to get up there and fix something that goes wrong on a moments notice. If that is the case - I don't see the problem.

Seven: Does anyone know when the first time a stagehand won a Tony Award? Or how about the last time? How about the first/last time any of them got an award of any kind? This is a thankless job. Rarely does anyone acknowledge the work done by stagehands. We put our lives and reputations on the line daily for you and in return many people working on a production, let alone seeing one, don't know our names and/or what we do. A little appreciation every once and awhile would be nice.

Appreciation would be nice but not to be expected. I have never gotten a keyboard award. Yes - there are some musical awards at the Tonys, but there are also technical awards.

Eight: A union is a collective bargaining unit. That means that one entity is bargaining on behalf of a larger number of people which in turns means that the employee gets a better working environment and has someone looking out for them. I have done a lot of non-union and union theater. I've had a higher hourly rate at a non-union theater than at a union theater in the same general area, but I was treated with a lot of disrespect and told that if I had a problem with the job that they could easily find some other person to do my job for me and that I'd be out of work. If this had happened to me on a union job, the union would have stepped in and protected my right to a safe and healthy working environment.

I addressed this up above.

Nine: Yes unions in the past have been violent when people have tried to cross picket lines and whatnot. We don't live in the 30's with the amazing frequency of camera phones around job sites and public faces it'd only be in your best instance to do nothing but walk away from it.

Eh.....if someone at a picket line assaults me I call the cops and hope they rot in jail - I don't care whether I crossed a line or not. - Jaded, I know - but if someone puts their hands on me I don't care what their cause is - so this is kind of a non-issue to me.

Ten: Stop speculating as to what is going on with the strike. You will know when the rest of the world knows. Whatever you say could be taken by the masses as fact and that is how rumors get started. The rumors being perpetuated will only hurt the process not help it.

Again- just our opinions.

Hope I don't seem out of place here, and would love to hear any other thoughts than what I just posted.

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 11:46am

AveQPat,

Nice thoughtful post. I agree with some if not all of what you've said. However, this particular statement sort of pricked up my ears:

"- what is to stop the League from hiring non-union stagehands that are trained properly and how long will AEA and AFM support a long term strike. I know it takes a lot of work to make a show run smoothly - BUT I have worked with non-union stage hands who have done a kick ass job with their productions. I am not saying hire out "illegal immigrants" as I saw posted on another thread - but skilled professionals who already do this work for a living - and train them for the theater and show they are doing."

There are a host of reasons for not hiring non-union hands to run the show. 1st of all who's going to train them? Most Broadway shows, especially Musicals, tech for several weeks to work out all the very intricate and dangerous scene shifts that can be involved. Unlike in an orchestra where there's a conductors score, and individual parts for each player, there is no such guide for the technical aspects of a show. Yes, the stage manager has a calling script, showing when each set move should start, and the order in which they should be taken, but it doesn't actually show what happens during those moves, how fast they should happen, what traffic patterns have been established in order to facilitate the shifts,or how the automation actually works. All those things are learned and worked out over the coarse of the tech rehearsals, by the individuals who are responsible for the shifts. Even though the stagehands that you've worked with may be totally qualified to work the show, that doesn't mean that they'd be able to just walk into the theatre and take over the job. You'd also have to ask members of the striking union to train their replacements, since there's no one else who actually knows what it is they've been doing. Somehow, I don't think you're going to find any union member to train someone to break their union. I also, think its doubtful that AEA or the AFM would ask their membership to work in a non-union run house, because the next time those contracts come up the producers could simply opt to go non-union with them as well.

I also find it a bit ironic that you as a union member seem willing to allow for non-union workers to take over union positions. Would the same feeling hold true, if say the AFM were on strike? Lord, knows there are a lot of "kick ass" non-union musicians out there who would have no trouble playing the books. Would you agree to letting a non-union musician take over your place in the pit, and put you out of work and perhaps also break your union, eliminating the benefits that you as a union member receive?

Updated On: 11/13/07 at 11:46 AM

[SamIAm]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 11:52am

I'm not really sure we need yet another thread on this topic but I understand feelings are running high. As for all the very simplistic opinions expressed that say unions are bad or unions should be disbanded, perhaps you should go back and research unions and why they were formed. While there is no doubt that unions are made up of people and that some unions are now top heavy and beaurocratic they exist for a good reason. When and if you hand power back to management and, in the case of theater, to the producers, you are ASKING for abuse, underpayment, overwork and especially in the case of stage hands in this day and age, you are asking or safety violations and injuries that will affect actors, and other production crew.

No one wants to see Broadway dark, but the single tool available to unions working without a contract is often a strike. When and if the producers feel enough discomfort from losing money, they will be forced to negotiate. While they may be saying that stage hands make big bucks and are unwilling to negotiate, I would hesitate to buy into the PR and propoganda on the street. Unless you know the details and the history, you should not be making sweeping statements like "get rid of unions".

If you think for a minute that this union is single-handedly responsible for the prices on Broadway, think again. These people work hard and deserve good health care, adequate staffing to maintain good working conditions, and decent pay. And no, most of them are NOT making $150,000 to $200,000 a year.

[AvenueQPat]

Posted: 11/13/07 at 12:23pm

Just A Guy -

You brought up a great answer to my question. I guess I was so used to things in a 3-6 day tech setting (where I was involved - obviously I am not a dry techs and what not) it is easy to forget that there are a lot of other little things like traffic patterns and timing that need to be set up when there are many more cues and many more "little things" that need to happen to make the transitions work.

As far as producers going non-union - I wouldn't say that I support that idea, but I think that my question was fueled by reports (accurate or inaccurate) that the stagehands have not met with the League since the strike began. A lot of that I have heard on this board, and from some other friends of mine - so I really don't know how accurate that is. My thought is how long will the producers sit by while they lose money - as well as the other unions involved in the shows before something drastic is done. And your response helped me to see why it wouldn't work.

I don't like the idea of losing my job to someone else -union or non- but if the AFM 802 strike lead to a non-union pit or the use of virtual orchestras - (and I know that I may get flamed for this) - I would need to seriously consider if I would want to remain a part of the union, or resign and work for myself. And to be honest I don't know what I would do. I have never held a chair on broadway so I don't know what it is like there 8 shows a week.

So in closing - I don't by any means thing that we should get rid of unions, and I don't like the idea of non-union crew,musicians,actors, etc. taking over previously unionized houses. I do think that if hands are forced, in this case by a strike, I would need to evaluate how I felt about everything and make a plan for myself depnding on how things progress.