New Poll: Which LES MIS Character Do You Think Deserves Another Song in the Film?- Page 3

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 2/5/12 at 1:43am

My Oh My, Byron wrote his poem "Don Juan" and pronounced it "Don Jew-an" This is similar to the way Shakespeare pronounced Romeo: Ro-mi-oh.

It makes perfect sense that the great majority of French people in the first half of the 19th century would have referred to the character as "Don Zhou-an," rather than "Don Juan." In the same way that Lorenzo da Ponte, in his Italian libretto for Mozart, dubs the character "Don Giovanni."

In Shakespeare's case, we are so used to it that we simply take the pronunciation for granted, but when we stop to think about it, of course the name of this famous character, whom we all refer to as Ro-mi-oh, is a Veronese youth whose name would have been pronounced Ro-may-oh. Now, suppose instead of Marius being compared to Don Juan, he would have been compared in the lyric to Romeo. If it was pronounced "Ro-may-oh," it would sound pretty strange, wouldn't it? But it would conform to the true national identity of the character.




we know from the rhymes Updated On: 2/5/12 at 01:43 AM

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 2/6/12 at 4:34am

I do hope that Tom Hooper takes as much advantage of film as a medium in order to make this a successful piece. Some of the numbers in LES MIZ (and in a lot of musicals) would stop a film cold; with a film adaptation you can establish certain relationships just with a few close-ups of hands, a shot/reverse shot of two people looking at each other, etc. You don't necessarily need a whole song to establish that so and so is so and so's sister and that they get along. I'm excited at the prospect of a LES MIZ that does not feel like they shot the stage production (I feel like I'm still traumatized about THE PRODUCERS).

[My Oh My]

Posted: 2/6/12 at 5:17am

Thanks for shedding light, Henrik.

OK, so let me get this straight, you are essentially saying that the allusions made about the use of "Dawn Jew-waun" being a result of sloppiness and/or ignorance are unfounded, that the author as well as most people who have pronounced it that way were well aware of their taking a Spanish name and adapting it to better suit their linguistic needs?

In other words, it's comparable to the way the Spanish city name of Los Angeles has long been adapted, standardized, and now widely pronounced "Loss Anne-jealous"? XD

If that's what you mean, then both you and I have a point and we both are valid in our opinions. English is my first language but I know Spanish well enough to relate to the jarring effect "Dawn Jew-waun" has on many people; however, the real issue is even deeper than I thought.

Our little exchange has brought to the surface the reason why I find that pronunciation so irritating and probably always will regardless of the fact the author intentionally adapted the name to suit a rhyme or whatever: when 'foreign' languages permeate predominantly English-speaking countries, they are not integrated into the culture but rather adapted. So, titles such as Les Miserables are known as "Lay Miz-eh-rob" and names such as Juanita are known as "Wau-nee-duh." XD

But should some silly Mexican come along and name his newborn "Yesica," there will no doubt be a chorus of "IT'S 'JESSICA,' YOU WETBACK!! LEARN ENGLISH OR GO BACK TO WHERE YA CAME FROOOOM! "'LOSS ANNE-JEALOUS' HAS ENOUGH OF YOU FOREIGNERS!!" LOL.

Not something I'm passionate about and I worry more about what I'm gonna wear to work tomorrow, but I guess that explains why I personally find it grating. Double standards!!

At any rate, apologies for going all Dr. Joyce Brothers on you, rofl.

Sooooooo, what was this thread about again?

*goes away*

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 2/6/12 at 8:43am

I think we are on la misma pagina My Oh My. I hope I didn't sound like a cultural imperialist in my explanation. I guess I would only add that the election of the wrong pronunciation may not merely be because it better suits a linguistic need but because it conforms to convention, and in some cases using the more authentic pronunciation would say something about a character that may be unintended (in certain instances it might even, rightly or wrongly, be seen to imply pretension, stiltedness or whimsicality). Los Angeles is a good example.

You are right that my point was mainly to correct an impression that "Don Zhouan" was used in Les Miz because of sloppiness or ignorance. I do think there is a matrix of confusion however in that in the U.S. (and perhaps in contemporary U.K. and France as well) the iconic character (unlike Romeo) is pronounced, more or less, correctly. But Les Miz is an Anglo-French musical, set in France, in which the original French lyrics were translated into English originally in the U.K. Moreover Don Juan is mentioned by a young student in 1832 when Byronism was still very much in vogue and it is quite likely that the Byronic pronunciation would have been adopted.

Of course I can understand your point as well, and you and I may be more in agreement than I've hitherto implied. Bottom line, for today's audiences, it might be better to aspirate the J for the movie to make the allusion much clearer and avoid confusion.

This is actually a very good example of how translation can be un gran hijo de puta!

Not to belabor the point much further, but it is clear from the novel how much Byron is on the minds of the young rebels, most notably Grantaire:

"Grantaire snorted, and opened his mouth, but closed it at a look from Combeferre, and smirked. "Enough?" He said finally, through the peridot haze on his vision, "Mon cher René-Vivien, I've no faith at all. I've no belief and less certainty, for I was never made to lead men. Wherefore do you deign to transform me into a guiding light? By virtue of grandiose adjectives and revolutionary vowels, crafted with none of Prouvaire's talent and all the more lacking for not being set to verse? I am a better Byron than a Desmoulins, mon cher. Remember that." "














Updated On: 2/6/12 at 08:43 AM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 2/6/12 at 9:20am

Best 12, the AMPAS categories for scoring have been very fluid and at many times, especially in the 60s and 70s, there were awards for adaptation and treatment scores.


and the nominees are... Updated On: 2/6/12 at 09:20 AM

[My Oh My]

Posted: 2/7/12 at 1:11am

Thanks for that quote from the brick. It does help prove your point and also makes "Dawn Jew-waun" a little less grating. =)

Updated On: 2/7/12 at 01:11 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/7/12 at 7:37am

henrik, yes I'm well aware of the past music categories. I know Oscar history (really) well, having had one of my best friends as a voting member of the Actors Branch for over 50 years, and my own grandfather involved with them from the first ceremony on until the mid-1950s. I wasn't aware there was a current category for "Best Oringal Musical Score," since they're not giving it out. They must have a quota of eligible films to hit before the category activates.

It's the same with Best Animated Feature Film, whether you know it or not. If there are fewer than five in any given year, the category isn't recognized at all (it "turns off," in other words). They'll nominate three up to a certain number of eligible films (I think it's 15?), then if there are more than that number, they nominate five.

I'm guessing this "hidden" (at least to me) category for Best Original Musical Score hasn't reached its necessary number to activate yet. I think it's interesting that they even have it, though.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 2/7/12 at 12:14pm

Not surprised it was my misunderstanding, best12, you being a wealth of info on this.

[jo]

Posted: 2/7/12 at 5:42pm

It looks like BWW missed out on the choices for who gets to sing the new song in LesMiserables!

Valjean gets the honor, per this new tweet from Hugh --


http://twitter.com/#!/RealHughJackman

>RealHughJackmanHugh Jackman



what an honour...singing a new song with the composer, claude michel, at rehearsals for les mis! http://pic.twitter.com/iXFsE1Qi

1 hour ago <<<

[mamaleh]

Posted: 2/8/12 at 8:21am

Yay! Valjean was conspicuously absent from the list of choices, yet he was my choice for the new song. I hope Hugh gets to sing it at the 2013 Oscars.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 2/8/12 at 11:31am

what will this new song be:

THE HUNKIEST MAYOR IN THE PAS-DE-CALAIS
LAMENT OF A HORNY GUY IN A CONVENT
JAVERT, JAVERT, GET OUT OF MY HAIR!
OK, OK, JUST FIRE THE BITCH!
TWO CANDLESTICKS, ONE FUTURE

[jo]

Posted: 2/8/12 at 5:40pm

Sorry, but he is singing about his fatherly care for Cosette, in a song called SUDDENLY!

http://www.playbill.com/news/article/159493-One-Song-More-Les-Miz-Film-Will-Have-New-Song-and-Live-Singing-Cameron-Mackintosh-Reveals-All

[emida]

Posted: 2/9/12 at 3:17pm

I agree with BroadwayChica. Gavroche should get another song, or simply have the complete version of Little People back. It was my favorite part of Les Mis...

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 2/9/12 at 6:41pm

Well regardless of Don Juan, they still pronounce Enjolras wrong

My Oh My I appreciate you going through the cuts. I saw the show twice, but that was in one month way way back in the early 90s (I think it was the first Canadian tour from Mirvish? It was a full sit-down tour that played long engagements in only three or four Canadian cities) I'm pretty sure with intermission it ran a bit over 2 hours.

I'd be curious to hear Gavroche's original song. I believe I read somewhere that someone involved (maybe it was the original French concept album and subsequent "tableaux" staging or maybe it was MacKintosh when he heard the score) saw Gavroche as a key figure and a key component to why it could be musicalize (I believe there was some comparison to Oliver and the Artful Dodger in Oliver). At any rate I have to say that has never come off for me and even as a very young teen, who worshipped the show, I found Gavroche and his death scene kinda ridiculous and annoying. Some have said that if he was the son of the Thenardiers as in the novel he would work better, but I don't think that would add too much to the show.

(so NO to the full Little People back please, though I haven't played the French album recently but I remember liking the lyrics for Gavroche's bits much more--of course most of the lyrics are much better--Kretzmer is no master lyricist).

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 2/9/12 at 7:01pm

I'm fond of Little People but I understand the objections to it. But without some big moment for him well before it, Gavroche's death scene falls flat. It seems like an afterthought. Not sure if restoring him to the Thenadiers will work given the time restraints. It goes without saying that this was a mammoth story to musicalize.