Hamas IS Isis and Isis IS Hamas!- Page 5

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 9/16/14 at 4:08pm

awwww, dame, you's just as sweet as i remembered!

[DAME]

Posted: 9/16/14 at 4:17pm

Just spreading some sugar from one old time hussy to another.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/16/14 at 11:21pm

Which of the militia groups are you referring to?

Does it matter? My point was how we in the U.S. label them, not how they actually function or what they may or may not believe.

Thank you for the NYT article. I don't pretend to have it all sorted out, but that certainly was a help.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/16/14 at 11:30pm

That's because ISIS does use the Islamic religion as a basis for their violence and destruction... Regardless of whether it's an accurate representation of the religion as a whole.

No doubt. But you might want to take a look at the influence of rightwing Christianity in the U.S. military:

http://militaryatheists.org/news/2014/09/secular-groups-take-aim-at-mandatory-military-religion/


No, no, it's not all exactly the same. But let's don't pretend many of our soldiers aren't also motivated by religion--either Christianity and Judaism, or "secular American religious" values such as "freedom" and "democracy".

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/16/14 at 11:45pm

Stop trying to make everything samey-samey, Gaveston.

You know there are no soldiers in the US Army slicing necks open and removing young girls's clitorises and raping them in round-robin fashion so they are F*CKed by as many mujaheddin as possible and doing it in front of their fathers and brothers and then killing the men and forcing the women to convert and then covering up their bodies except for their eyes.

Stop trying to make everything samey-samey and let each awful thing be awful in its own way.

This samey-samey stuff is beneath you.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 6:51am

Except that we DON'T let everything be awful in its own way, PJ. (See your own frigging post for an example.)

We pretend THEY are awful and WE are wonderful and that is why they hate us.

And I'm saying maybe the thousands of Arabs we've killed, the millions we've made homeless--just in the past decade--plus a century of arming homicidal dictators to keep the oil flowing may have more to do with why they hate us than our supposed love of freedom or the particular monotheistic treatise they read.

That doesn't mean I think all armies or all cultural values are the same.

Yes, I think there is an alarming conflict between modern and medieval values in today's world and it scares me that I see no impending solution, neither here nor abroad. But since I don't see anyone discussing that schism, we might as well admit that the boogiemen have grievances of their own (and, no, I'm not talking about the Crusades).




Updated On: 9/17/14 at 06:51 AM

[tazber]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 7:24am

No, no, it's not all exactly the same. But let's don't pretend many of our soldiers aren't also motivated by religion--either Christianity and Judaism, or "secular American religious" values such as "freedom" and "democracy"

We are not a theocracy. Religious edicts don't inform the way our military operates.

And WTF is secular American religious values?

The point you're trying to make (which is apples to oranges to begin with) is further undercut by your contradiction in terms.


But more than anything else, your posts makes me think of "something something native Americans".


We pretend THEY are awful and WE are wonderful and that is why they hate us.

Stop speaking as if you took a poll of all 300 million Americans. Many people can rationally differentiate between ISIL and America without having to become jingoistic.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 7:49am

Exactly.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 7:54am

Oh, please, tazber! Unless you've been living in a hole without cable or wifi, you've heard "they hate us because of our freedom" as often as I have.

We aren't a theocracy? I suppose you assume that because we have one Muslim in Congress; but until I get a viable ballot choice who is neither Christian nor Jewish, I am doubtful. For more info on the dominance of Christians in our armed forces and the attempt to enforce a "Christian culture" in the Air Force, see the site to which I linked above.

I thought my oxymoronic reference to "secular religious" values was clear, but apparently not. I was talking about secular concepts we cherish as a matter of faith, such as the suggestion by the Headband that "democracy" is always better than a "dictatorship". (Perhaps it is, but I can't know because it's been so long since I've experienced it.)

AND FOR AT LEAST THE TENTH TIME, my original point was not that ISIS and the USAF are "samey-samey" (to use PJ's condescending term), but that radical Arabs are motivated by factors other than a 7th century religious text.

For a more thoughtful proposal to contain ISIS, the following link contains an editorial by a young writer with experience in the region. Oddly, she manages to make her proposal with few, if any, references to Islam:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/chelsea-manning-isis-strategy




Updated On: 9/17/14 at 07:54 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 7:58am

the·oc·ra·cy noun h?-?ä-kr?-s?
: a form of government in which a country is ruled by religious leaders

: a country that is ruled by religious leaders
plural the·oc·ra·cies

Full Definition of THEOCRACY

1
: government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided
2
: a state governed by a theocracy
See theocracy defined for English-language learners »
See theocracy defined for kids »
Origin of THEOCRACY

Greek theokratia, from the- + -kratia -cracy
First Known Use: 1622
Other Government and Politics Terms

agent provocateur, agitprop, autarky, cabal, egalitarianism, federalism, hegemony, plenipotentiary, popular sovereignty, socialism
Rhymes with THEOCRACY

autocracy, bureaucracy, democracy, Eurocracy, kleptocracy, mobocracy, plantocracy, plutocracy, slavocracy, technocracy
theocracy noun (Concise Encyclopedia)
Government by divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided. In many theocracies, government leaders are members of the clergy, and the state's legal system is based on religious law. Theocratic rule was typical of early civilizations. The Enlightenment marked the end of theocracy in most Western countries. Contemporary examples of theocracies include Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the Vatican. See also church and state; divine kingship.

[tazber]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 8:05am

So, according to you we're a theocracy, (untrue), secular values are somehow the same thing as religious values (?), and Muslims hate us because we're free (not because we're infidels in their eyes).

Discussing this is pointless since you apparently don't even know what a theocracy is.

(hint - it has nothing to do with what religion various congressional officials believe in)

Updated On: 9/17/14 at 08:05 AM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 4:33pm

why are you two bothering. look at my signature and remember.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 6:08pm

Ms. Manning is a pretty girl but her wishful thinking is a little naive. I think you and she should both read this piercing analysis the rivalries between the various jihadist movements by Adam Taylor in today's Washington Post.

Their in-fighting is hardly likely to make them rub each other out, like Chicago mobsters. If anything, they will metastasize.


WASHINGTON POST: Has the Islamic State caused a rift in the world of al-Qaeda?

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 10:14pm

It's about the politics, not the religion

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 10:45pm

Borstalboy, that's all I've been saying.

As for PJ and tazber, do you guys realize how much you sound like the Headband when you insist we use only the most narrow and literal definition of every word? You know perfectly well that I know what a theocracy is.

I didn't say the U.S. is a theocracy; in fact, it has become a plutocracy. But what did we discuss most during Obama's first campaign for presidency? Hint: it wasn't healthcare or even bank reform. Until a president (or senator or congressperson) can be elected without first presenting his religious credentials, I will continue to insist the U.S. has theocratic tendencies, at least.

My point--yet again, for p*uck's sake--is not that the U.S. and ISIL are identical, but that it does us little good to paint terrorists as essentially non-human. Imperialist movements from the American Revolution through the Boer War, Algerian Independence and Vietnam have shown the folly of doing so.

(And FTR, it was never I who brought up Native Americans.)

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 11:06pm

Actually, Gaveston, I don't think you know what a theocracy is at all.

I know for sure that the author of that Salon piece is clueless. I don't much agree with the atheist he critiques either.

I think everyone is pretty much clueless--but no one is more clueless than the people who say they've got it all figured out.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 11:36pm

Joey, you are a pompous and condescending ass.

Apparently, you imagine Hannah Arendt has appointed you to police everyone's rhetorical usage at this forum, but doing so makes you as big a troll as the Headband.

Unlike Headband, however, you have bestowed on us many wonderful aural and visual treats, bewitching many a poster into supporting your edicts without even pretending to understand them. So a discussion with you is much too much like addressing an unruly mob, even though a Judy Garland clip, however rare, is not the same thing as a command of Middle Eastern affairs.

In the process you miss Manning's point (it's easier to fan the flames of radicalism than to effectively govern) and offer us instead an NYT article that is little more than a cast list from an ISIS PLAYBILL.

It is you who thinks he "knows everything". I have made no such claim. Your mention of sexual assaults on women as a peculiarly ISIS trait would be laughable if our own military's history of assaulting females (our own and the enemies') weren't so horrendous.

Perhaps if you stop policing the discussion, you can actually take part in it thoughtfully. Just an experiment you might try....

(Yes, this post used to say something else, but I've learned that rhetorical devices such as analogy and metaphor are only confusing to many posters here.)

Updated On: 9/18/14 at 11:36 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 9/17/14 at 11:39pm

PJ, I have read two of Sam Harris' (the atheist's) books and I agree that he tends to overstate the impact of theology. But what exactly are YOUR credentials on Middle Eastern history that we all must kowtow to your every opinion or hint thereof?

I readily admit I have no credentials on the subject. I'm just chatting, and once in a great while I link to something I find interesting. Updated On: 9/18/14 at 11:39 PM

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 9/18/14 at 9:38am

If you share such disdainful feelings of contempt toward our country and are so skeptical of our country's military, why do you stay here? A portion of your taxes are funneled into the Department of Defense, which you believe is a corrupt entity propagating holy war. Apparently. So, why not head up north to Canada? I ask sincerely.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 9/18/14 at 9:39am

Team Gav!

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/18/14 at 9:52am

So, why not head up north to Canada? I ask sincerely.

You sincerely sound like an idiot asking that.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/18/14 at 10:47am

NOT Team Headband!

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 9/18/14 at 11:15am

Mister Matt. If one holds such disdain for his or her country, why do they not move? The government is a mess. We all know that. It's a cog of deception, corruption, and bureaucracy. I complain but I do not resent. It is what it is. It will not change, at least for the time being, but I accept that. I do not lash out against my country. If I were truly resentful toward my government or my military, like it seems Gaveston is, I'd probably find a way to move elsewhere; perhaps Canada or somewhere in Europe. At least then I might be happy.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 9/18/14 at 11:36am

Headcase, give up the moral/intellectual hall monitor routine. You aren't equipped, as has been proven again and again and again and again and again and again and...

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/18/14 at 11:40am

...again.