Am I the only one that didn't enjoy Spring Awakening?- Page 5

[MamawhoBoreme]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:38pm

"Well, think of statutory rape. If a person is under 18 (different in other states, I know), any sexual relations they have is considered to be rape since they are not perceived to be mature enough to make the right decisions. This is obviously a faulty system as many 16 year olds are probably mature enough and I'm sure there are 20 year olds who aren't - but Wendla is most definitely not. Whether or not it appeared as if she wanted to do it, she didn't have all the information required to make a proper judgement. Her apparent love for Melchior is irrelevent."

I agree but thats not the point here. the point here is that Wendla wasnt raped in the show. if she was in the play then they changed it. i am by no means narrow minded about rape i know plenty of women that have been rapped... dont go and make judgements about me because we are having a chat about a musical. Rape in 1891 is different than it is now. and if you think about it not all teenagers or adults have all the information about sex even now. when your 14/15 years old whenever a guy tells you he "loves" you, your obviously going to believe it. so is that irrelevent too in todays world?


Sorry everyone but i hate when people make judgements on people they dont even know. ***
Updated On: 1/8/07 at 07:38 PM

[snl89]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:40pm

I just realized something... I'm honestly not sure on this- is it considered statutory rape if the two people involved are BOTH under 18? Because like.. melchior happens to be informed, but what if it had been, say, moritz (prior to the essay haha) and wendla? would that still be considered rape, even though they're BOTH uninformed?

because if you're thinking it from that point of view, can you really still say melchior is raping her just because he happens to know the facts? They're the same age- its not an adult having sex with a young girl. Just because he happens to be more informed, is that the only reason its called rape? I just realized that that kind of comes in to play.

Updated On: 1/8/07 at 07:40 PM

[brainpolice23]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:41pm

Sater and Michael Mayer have said openly that they didn't want the sexual encounter between Melchior and Wendla to be a rape. In the play it is openly a rape, as Wendla says something like "no, no, no, don't." Her understanding of conception is that it comes from "Love," which she does not understand completely due to the tainted image given to her by her parents. The musical alters a bunch of concepts that are present in the play. For example, the masked man is pinned definitely as Ilse in the musical, while it is left up to the reader's perception in Wedekind's original. In the play, Wedekind pinned both Moritz and Wendla as very simplistic and naive, and characterized Melchior as almost being this controlling person wanting to shape those with his views. When Melchior encounters Moritz in the graveyard, Moritz pushes Melchior to follow his bath and join him in death, possibly reflecting the concept that death is part of Melchior's plan, yet the masked man intervenes. The song "Those you've known" is supposed to sum this all up, but it is not that affective.

Also in the play, the concept of the tragic hero is presented much differently. Oddly, Sater almost tries to pin Melchior or even Moritz as the tragic hero. My personal perception is that the Adults are the tragic heroes. If you read Aristotle's definition of tragedy, the adults fall directly into line as the true tragic heroes of the play.

-They occupy positions of prominence
-Have a tragic flaw that is illustrated in the beginning of the play (failure to teach/educate)
-Encounter a chain of cause-and-effect sequences that result in their downfall
-etc.

Also, the play deals awkwardly with the death of Moritz. In the play, Rentier Stiefel feels a great detachment by stating "That boy is no son of mine" (Bentley translation), disgusted by Moritz's actions, feeling the need to disassociate himself with them, and almost viewing Moritz's suicide as a way to spite his father...as evidence by Uncle Probst quote, "I wouldn't have believed my own mother if she'd told me a child could treat his parents so basely." In the play, Spinella just weeps uncontrollably.

Moritz is in a sense the most impressionable character in the play. He is manipulated by Melchior, pressured like hell by his parents, condemned by his "educators," and even convinces himself that if he doesn't get a promotion he is going to shoot himself. Initially, this appears to be a sort of game, with the "veiled threat" of suicide...as a means to get attention from peers and close ones. In essence, he feels sorry for himself, and wants to see the faces of those at his funeral, observing how they contributed to his death. Moritz is way too emo for his own good.

There's more stuff I'd rant about, but I'm tired and have a math test tomorrow.

[MamawhoBoreme]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:43pm

"I just realized something... I'm honestly not sure on this- is it considered statutory rape if the two people involved are BOTH under 18? Because like.. melchior happens to be informed, but what if it had been, say, moritz (prior to the essay haha) and wendla? would that still be considered rape, even though they're BOTH uninformed?"

Well we dont know if they even had anything called statutory rape back then. but if we consider it now. its statutory rape if the one is 18 or older like if a girl is 14 and the guy is 19. but it doesnt nessicarly mean if Melchior did know everything about sex, he didnt know about RAPE. we have to think of the time difference here too.

[shesamarshmallow]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:43pm

Mama, I think you just said exactly what I said, with the complete opposite conclusion. That's fine. I didn't make any judgements about you. I'm just saying that by my standards, Wendla was raped, and it's one of the many issues I have with this show.

I may be wrong here, but I assumed that the sex at the beginning of Act 2 was the same time shown again, because they were in exactly the same position. I thought it was just juxtaposed against the others for effect.

[MamawhoBoreme]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:46pm

"I've seen the show. I think the problem is not that you don't understand the show, it's your narrow conception of rape. It can still be rape if the girl doesn't scream and try to get away."

that statement too me is judging. but thats fine.

[teka21]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:48pm

Melchior is only 15- statutory rape is for legal adults who have sex with a teen not old enough to give consent. I don't believe either of these teens are legally old enough for that charge to apply. But why is this the only "rape" shesamarshmellow is concerned about- what about poor Ilse and Martha, raped repeatedly by their fathers? Poor Melchior in Mayer's version of SA is a young idealist who wants to change a repressive world by challenging its conventions.

[MamawhoBoreme]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:49pm

"Melchior is only 15- statutory rape is for legal adults who have sex with a teen not old enough to give consent. I don't believe either of these teens are legally old enough for that charge to apply. But why is this the only "rape" shesamarshmellow is concerned about- what about poor Ilse and Martha, raped repeatedly by their fathers? Poor Melchior in Mayer's version of SA is a young idealist who wants to change a repressive world by challenging its conventions."

Very True.. wish they developed the Martha/Ilse story a little bit more though. they never really explained what happend to them. i still have yet to read the PLAY

[shesamarshmallow]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:51pm

It's the only rape I'm worried about because it's the only rape that's glorified in the play. The simple fact that everyone on this board keeps talking about how much they love one another is why it bothers me. And you're entitled to your opinion, I'm just trying to explain why it makes me uncomfortable. The musical (unlike the play, apparently) seems to want you to sympathize with Melchior (as shown by the casting of Groff) which I simply cannot do.

Thanks for your thoughts, brainpolice. Moritz is pretty damn emo.

[snl89]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:55pm

But why is this the only "rape" shesamarshmellow is concerned about- what about poor Ilse and Martha, raped repeatedly by their fathers? Poor Melchior in Mayer's version of SA is a young idealist who wants to change a repressive world by challenging its conventions.

^THANK YOU. In all this discussion, I kind of did forget about that. Seriously, Martha and Ilse are SO much worse off. THAT, to me, is rape, and much more horrible than what melchior does.

and Mama, thats a good point, I think a big part of the reason I dont blame melchior is because he probably doesn't understand the concept of rape either! All I know is that I def didn't feel like, in the show at least, he was doing it because he was a bad, filthy person who doesn't bother to control their sexual desires. He may have more knowledge than Wendla, but that doesn't make him any less confused.

Updated On: 1/8/07 at 07:55 PM

[MamawhoBoreme]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:55pm

"It's the only rape I'm worried about because it's the only rape that's glorified in the play. The simple fact that everyone on this board keeps talking about how much they love one another is why it bothers me. And you're entitled to your opinion, I'm just trying to explain why it makes me uncomfortable. The musical (unlike the play, apparently) seems to want you to sympathize with Melchior (as shown by the casting of Groff) which I simply cannot do.

Thanks for your thoughts, brainpolice. Moritz is pretty damn emo."

Broadway glorifies almost everything. I know im going to get shot for this but look at Wicked.. glorified. I love Wicked but the book is much more dark and sinister than Broadway makes it.

[MamawhoBoreme]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:57pm

"^THANK YOU. In all this discussion, I kind of did forget about that. Seriously, Martha and Ilse are SO much worse off. THAT, to me, is rape, and much more horrible than what melchior does.

and Mama, thats a good point, I think a big part of the reason I dont blame melchior is because he probably doesn't understand the concept of rape either! All I know is that I def didn't feel like, in the show at least, he was doing it because he was a bad, filthy person who doesn't bother to control their sexual desires."

Sorry for the double post but your right SNL. well when i think of RAPE someone is intentionally trying to be a bad person, trying to hurt someone. but in SA Melchior didnt even want to hit Wendla with the stick, how can he RAPE her and want to hurt her, if she had to beg him to hit her. :/

[Becoz_i_knew_you21]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:58pm

In the play Wendla's mother says a man and woman must love each other to have a child. When Wendla finds out she is with child she says she has only loved her mother.

"but it doesnt nessicarly mean if Melchior did know everything about sex, he didnt know about RAPE. we have to think of the time difference here too."

In the play I,got the sense that Melchoir knew what he was doing. It was a selfish act.
Updated On: 1/8/07 at 07:58 PM

[shesamarshmallow]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:59pm

Yep, and Sweeney Todd glorifies murder. Good for you.
It's a case by case situation based on tone and other aspects of a show. I'm backing out of this conversation now. I'll find some puppies or kittens to get my mind off this horrible subject.

Becoz, I appreciate your lack of bias.

Updated On: 1/8/07 at 07:59 PM

[MamawhoBoreme]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 7:59pm

"In the play Wendla's mother says a man an woman must love each other to have a child. When Wendla finds out she is with child she says she has only loved her mother.

"but it doesnt nessicarly mean if Melchior did know everything about sex, he didnt know about RAPE. we have to think of the time difference here too."

In the play I,got the sense that Melchoir knew what he was doing. It was a selfish act."

I guess everyone is going to have their different ways of picking apart the play. to each his own i suppose.

[MamawhoBoreme]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 8:01pm

"Yep, and Sweeney Todd glorifies murder. Good for you.
It's a case by case situation based on tone and other aspects of a show. I'm backing out of this conversation now. I'll find some puppies or kittens."

So exactly why are you so worried about SA's scene? i dont get it. just get over it.

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 8:07pm

Alright, I haven't read much but here is my quick opinion.

I was hearing great things about it but I still went in with "neutral" expectations.
I found it to be far from satisfying. I left the theatre wondering if I missed something. When I went home, I even reflected on it a bit and yet, still didn't see any appeal.

I wanted to buy the CD before hand but decided it was best to see the show first.
Needless to say, I never bought the CD.

[Becoz_i_knew_you21]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 8:10pm

When I said the play, I was referring to Wedekind's play. When I'm referring to the musical I'll say musical. I might have confused some people.
Updated On: 1/8/07 at 08:10 PM

[MamawhoBoreme]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 8:17pm

i felt i missed something too but all i have been listening to is the OBC and i understand it much better now. and i just ordered the play so hopefully reading it will make it even easier to understand. but i was affected by the show and i still am.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 8:19pm

Question to people who did not feel anything emotional. Were you really uneffected by Moritz's suicide?

Don't Do Sadness/Blue Wind and Moritz's suicide into Left Behind was the only segment of the play where I felt stirrings of emotional involvement, but that suicide didn't have the impact that it could have had. I actually remember feeling my hopes rise during that scene and thinking that, finally, the story was going to start pulling me in, but it didn't turn out to be so.

[teka21]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 8:28pm

I don't think it's necessary to have a show that neatly ties up all the loose ends. True theater(as opposed to pure entertainment) should provoke and leave you thinking. Spring Awakening seems to have succeeded by these standards! The horrible reality for Martha, and Ilse (who rightfully worries she'll end up on a trash heap) is that in their situations, they were helpless and powerless to change their lives, and society often held these victims to blame for their circumstances. That is what I find so disturbing and effective about SA- it does not let the society (or Melchior) off the hook. The Song of Purple Summer is only a wistful plea for a brighter future- maybe possible in our own hands today, but not for Wedekind's characters.

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 8:37pm

I have not seen it, nor do I plan to, we had to read the original script in one of my theatre classes and I HATED it, but decided to give it the benefit of the doubt and borrowed my friend's copy of the cast album, and was still turned off...in short I am gonna TKTS a show when my tour group goes and sees it.

[snl89]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 8:39pm

I don't think it's necessary to have a show that neatly ties up all the loose ends. True theater(as opposed to pure entertainment) should provoke and leave you thinking. Spring Awakening seems to have succeeded by these standards! The horrible reality for Martha, and Ilse (who rightfully worries she'll end up on a trash heap) is that in their situations, they were helpless and powerless to change their lives, and society often held these victims to blame for their circumstances. That is what I find so disturbing and effective about SA- it does not let the society (or Melchior) off the hook. The Song of Purple Summer is only a wistful plea for a brighter future- maybe possible in our own hands today, but not for Wedekind's characters.

wow, you really put things perfectly! :)

it really is a disturbing show- but I LIKE that its disturbing. It made me think, and feel. Thats why it suprised me so much to hear how many people didn't feel ANYTHING, because if anything I would have expected people to say it was just so depressing that it wasn't even worth it. At first durring the graveyard scene, I started feeling that way, but Those You've Known and Song of Purple Summer really kind of helped it come out of that. They made it so that the ending is still effective and haunting, but also leaves off with a hint of hopefullness and support.

Updated On: 1/8/07 at 08:39 PM

[Becoz_i_knew_you21]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 8:40pm

"I have not seen it, nor do I plan to, we had to read the original script in one of my theatre classes and I HATED it, but decided to give it the benefit of the doubt and borrowed my friend's copy of the cast album, and was still turned off...in short I am gonna TKTS a show when my tour group goes and sees it."

Someone *finally* gives a valid reason they do not like Spring Awakening.

[lucydee]

Posted: 1/8/07 at 9:36pm

I got to tell you I did not think it
was all that great. I liked the music
and I thought the actors did a good job
but thats it. I would not go back to
see this show.

Not my cup of tea.