An Open Letter

[ZONEACE]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 10:45pm

Dear Moderators who are not named Moderator. I will not speak for the community of members here, but I speak for what I think is best for the community. I will refrain from using derogatory terms and from name calling because I want to this thread to be read in a serious and thoughtful way (plus I have been threatened with banning if I use the terms I have used in previously deleted threads). This thread will probably be deleted, and I will probably be banned, but hopefully not before a few members, that clearly have more clout than I, read it. I feel that we, as a community that are under some sort of observation and for lack of a better term, control, with what we can post that we deserve to know the identity of the nameless Moderator. I say this because I honestly believe that the power is either being used inappropriately and abused, or that perhaps, the more likely case, that we need more that this one Moderator, but in public view. There must be some sort of system of checks and balances. What is to stop our nameless authoritarian (not an insult, simply a name for someone who has the power) from possibly abusing the power if there is no accountability? I have had several exchanges with the nameless Moderator today, mainly because I felt I was being treated unfairly. Did I go too far? Probably, but when we as a group have no recourse, no way to bring up our complaints without the threat of deletion because the person we would like to complain about seems to be the only one with any power, how else can we handle it but to make a public scene and hope as many people see it before it gets deleted as possible? Two things led to the escalation of my actions. First, I had multiple threads deleted for apparently violating the YouTube Guideline. However, when I read the guideline nothing in my threads was in violation. Second, the nameless Moderator refused to answer why. Even when I explained that they did not violate the guideline I was given no response. While most of the PMs I sent to the nameless Moderator were heated I refrained from vulgarities, but did on multiple occasions use the terms "Stalin," "Stalinist" and "KGB." These were also not met with any response beyond deletion of more threads and finally the threat of banning if the comparisons and name calling continued. This (at least near the end of the ordeal, including the threat of banning) occurred all while a member was running rampant in a thread posting disturbing, disgusting, vulgar and pornographic images (for which a thread calling for Craig to take some action had been created). The nameless moderator decided that it was a more pressing matter to delete my thread calling attention to the fact that innocuous threads I had created earlier in the day had been deleted and now when something that was actually threatening to the board and disruptive to the board was occurring, no action was being taken (with a claim of having no knowledge of such abusive posts despite the aforementioned thread calling for action from Craig and my threads also calling attention to the events that were deleted). If asked, I will gladly post any and all PM's I sent related to the matter. But I just wanted to get this out there.

I want to stress once more (because 1, I am being completely honest in my attempt here, and 2, I really don't want to see this thread deleted and myself banned because I truly enjoy posting here), that this is not meant as an attack, it is a question, a request, a pleading for answers, for information (because such pleas, even in peaceful PMs have been ignored). I believe we, as a community have a right to know who it is at the reins of the power to make threads disappear. If not just for curiosity's sake, so there can be some accountability for those with the power. Because, as trite and clichéd as it may be, who will watch the watchers?


Respectfully,

ZONEACE AKA Chance Hamlin

[Caroline-Q-or-TBoo]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 10:50pm

i love your avatar...

[LaurenB]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 10:55pm

I loved the one before that.

I would be deeply distressed if this became a Zone-free zone!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 10:58pm

"I believe we, as a community have a right to know who it is at the reins of the power to make threads disappear."

They tried that before with Jose. It didn't work.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 10:59pm

zone, it's their sandbox. if we wanna play in it we have to accept their indosyncracies. stuff gets deleted. stuff about stuff being deleted gets deleted. when it happens people want answers and if the answers or non-answers they get are not enough, there's really no recourse. we don't pay to be here. we really have absolutely no rights whatsoever when it comes to this board. if the moderators or powers that be decided tomorrow that all posts not using proper capitalization would be deleted, i'd be f*cked. but i'd also have no choice but to either change my posting style or see every post and thread i make deleted. the boards are a benevolent dictaroship run by rob and craig and those they choose. as posters who contribute nothig more than posts we have no say. none. now, they do on occasion listen to suggestions (even though they've yet to see the merit in my suggestion of naked av tuesdays), but that's their choice, not their requirement.

there've been so very many threads similar to this one. some more vitriolic, some just as measured and respectful. they change nothing. in the end, things are the way they are and that's just the way it is. we've got a playground that's being provided to us free of charge. it's like going to a bar with a sign that says free ber and then demanding that they give you free guinness instead of free bud light. it's free and it's theirs. we can enjoy it or not, but in the end it's theirs to do with as they will.

Updated On: 9/20/06 at 10:59 PM

[ZONEACE]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:03pm

Papa, I completely understand the whole "it's their sand box" idea. And it's completely true. But without this community of people, the posters, their kingdom dies. They need people to post. They need hits, otherwise the advertisers go away, the other littler perks they have, like the 30 days of NYMF, with out people coming to the site, all that dries up. So they do need us, to an extent. Obviously, not as much as we need them.



ETA, I hope this is still here when i get back in a couple of hours.

Updated On: 9/20/06 at 11:03 PM

[StageManager2]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:05pm

You know, for the longest time I thought your username was Zoneface.

BTW: Appropriate first name. How many more chances will the moderators keep giving you, I wonder?

Updated On: 9/20/06 at 11:05 PM

[ZONEACE]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:07pm

I appreciate your attempt to goad me SM2, but it's not going to work.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:07pm

but zone, how many people will really stop over this? even if a bunch of the ot board regulars did, how much would it effect the main board? that's where the majority of their traffic comes from. we're the red-headed stepchild over here.

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:13pm

I have to admit that I first read it as ZONEFACE but within the first few months, I realized. I just read it wrong, it wasn't to be offensive.

I have to compliment ZONE and Papa for being quite mature in this thread. It is pleasently surprising.

As for the topic at hand, this is Rob and Craig's place. They own it and we are "using" it. Do I think power is used to often? Maybe. But on the other hand, if it isn't used right away, things could get out of hand. When those pornagraphic pictures were being posted, I was quite surprised to see other threads deleted first.

I don't want you, ZONE, to post the PM's but I am curious as to how/why the mod ignored your question. Which mod did you PM? Of the very few occasions I PMed a mod, 1 seemed to be nicer than another.

Where did this post get me? Good question. I have to idea.

[Chanticleer148]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:18pm

Sounds like somebody finally took control of the board...

I wonder who and how.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:20pm

f*ck, i knew that mentioning the name was like betelgeuse. even deleted it worked it's evil magic. a thousand pardons, fellow posters.

[colleen_lee]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:21pm

As has been stated, this is Rob's game, he can run it how he chooses.

Though I do agree that the anonymous moderator may not be the best approach. I certainly understand the mindset when they made that decision, but I feel like the faceless factor is breeding major animosity. Personally, I have a much easier time respecting the moderating decisions of Craig and Rob because there is a name, face and person behind the decisions that I can address. The anonymity of "moderator" (or multiple, if that is the case) presents a much more tyrannical front.

But, alas, I am but a peon in the BWW pool.

[wonderwaiter]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:24pm

I wouldn't go so far as to say they "need" us on the off-topic board. They could probably operate quite well with their news features and main board. Out of respect for that I try (for the most part) to keep my posts within the guidelines.

That being said, I do have a problem with "moderator". When Craig steps into a thread he comments on the thread at hand and issues a warning. If he takes action, he explains that action at the time he takes it.

If you click on moderator's profile, you can actually trace the dissolve of humor and mutual respect. It started with gentle warnings and proddings, then graduated to terse explanations of the guidelines, finally to total deletions with no explanation whatsoever. In threads where there are obvious violations of guidelines, it's one thing - but seemingly innocuous threads have been deleted without explanation as well. While I ultimately respect the moderator's decision, it makes it harder to play in the sandbox because it makes the guidelines blurrier.

As a poster who appreciates the privilege of playing here, I'd appreciate some better explanations here and there for some of the more questionable deletions just for the simple fact that it would help me follow the rules a little better. I'd like it if there was more open communication regarding that.


(ETA - a BUNCH of people posted while I was typing this - including Rob. Sorry if anything I typed was addressed during that period.)

Updated On: 9/20/06 at 11:24 PM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:27pm

colleen, like pj said, the named moderator can become just as easily reviled as the unnamed one. the animosity is even worse when it's focused on a person. i'd rather have people ranting and raving about the nameless faceless one(s), than directing their anger at someone specific by name. and ya know it would happen. someone would get stuff deleted and be angry and feel it was unfair and it would snowball from there. i'm not saying that's what happened before, but that's what would happen.

and who says this isn't a tyranny?

[Chanticleer148]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:31pm

And who says that there are any standards at all?

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:35pm

I was gonna say PM Rob but he did.

Maybe you could draw up a Poster's Bill of Rights and see if it gets accepted like amendments to the constitution.

(They must think of us as really rowdy.)

[Craig]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:36pm

Since Rob posted, I'll add the following in response to WW

I try, when possible to explain what's going on. I don't always have time. As Rob said, we have several moderators - all with other jobs as well. While it's always nice to get an explanation, it's simply not possible all the time.

If you ever have questions about why your post was deleted or to clarify one of our guidelines, you can always PM Rob or myself or "moderator" and it will be explained.

There can be several reasons (obvious and not so obvious) why a thread might be deleted. Posting a new thread to ask about why another thread was deleted is pretty much counterproductive. In my opinion anyway and really won't answer your question.

I also encourage people to use the "report abuse" option at the top of the message board. Creating threads (I was offline today) "Craig!!!" doesn't do as much good as hitting that button up top because those abuse emails are the "fast track" to our eyes and ears.

With thousands of posts going on a day, we simply can't be everywhere all the time.

It's entirely possible that threads you think aren't as "bad" are getting deleted before others because we've spotted them or been made aware.

Rob, all the moderators and I thank you VERY much for alerting us when a poster goes on a rampage or starts flooding the board, etc so we can take action.

Best,
Craig

[wonderwaiter]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:37pm

See papa, from my point of view I don't think that's true in this case. Craig posts in many threads. He's one of the funniest and most respected posters on here, so when he steps into a thread, it carries some weight. When moderator steps in, it's with a stern warning at best, and in the tersest manner possible. I think decisions can be better received from someone you know and respect.

Again ETA - thanks for responding Craig. I DO understand the difficulties involved in the job, and I appreciate your efforts.

Updated On: 9/20/06 at 11:37 PM

[StageManager2]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:40pm

Hogwash, Craig! I sent you a PM last week enquiring why my post was deleted and I never received a reply.

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:41pm

*Hugs Craig*

[Craig]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:43pm

WW - trust me - it's a double edged sword :) But thank you for your kind words.

I have to say that I think it really shouldn't matter who's doing the deleting or the warning. As I said, I try to explain when and if possible - but I never feel I HAVE to explain myself or my actions. I will add that there are several people (and not acting alone as Rob said) when a post gets deleted. So even though I might be posting or online, doesn't mean I'm at the wheel, so to speak.

The moderators who use the moderator screen name post in the simplest way to make the point crystal clear. While it may not be as "personal" - I hope that everyone can understand it's still not "personal" against them.

ALL the moderators deserve not only our respect, but also a heartfelt thank you (at least from me, I won't speak for anyone else) for all that they do for BroadwayWorld.com to keep it as "sane" as possible.

Best,
Craig

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:45pm

I remember when I first started posting here and Rob and Craig's heads started jumping into my threads I was startled. They kind of scared me, I had no idea who they were or that there were moderators.

I was like "Who is this person?????" Then again, it was the first time I ever used a message board.

Plus I think they had like just outlines of their heads rather than photos which was kinda strange. I like talking about them in the third person now because they've gone more corporate. Updated On: 9/20/06 at 11:45 PM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 9/20/06 at 11:58pm

i like rob and craig both very much, not just because they both put up with me and have done so for a long time, but because they're both good guys and have been known to buy a drink or two once in a while (hint, hint). that said, i think that some of the respect accorded to them (and i hope this doesn't come off badly) is because it's their place. a chosen identified moderator would not have that same status. no one's going to call for rob or craig to be stripped of their abilities to delete threads or make policy. the same can not be said for somone who's volunteering their time to try to keep order. someone is always going to be pissed off about how the board is moderated. by putting a name and face to the moderator, you only give those who are angry a target for their vitriol. every post that person made and where they made them would be analyzed for whose "side" they were on and eventually a block of posters would turn against them and they'd have to step down and the cycle would begin anew. nope, i'm all for the nameless mods.

i get a lot of posts and threads deleted and 90% of the time i know full well why they were. 9% of the others, i have a pretty good idea about and the last 1% i ask about never really caring all that much whether my queries are answred or not (they usually are). in the end, it's a message board. it can be great fun, but it's just a message board.

[colleen_lee]

Posted: 9/21/06 at 12:00am

Aha!! I've figured it out. Papa is the secret mod!

Everything has become clear now.