Big 3 Bailout - The Senate Bails On It

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 12/11/08 at 10:47pm

Talks in the Senate collapsed after the UAW refused to make wage cuts until 2011.Yeah, it would really help over 2 years from now. They just don't get it or have a death wish.

Instead of taking less they will possibly lose their jobs althogether.

Real smart guys

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/11/08 at 11:03pm

The shiite is really hitting the fan, boys and girls.

Stick a fork in it.

It's the transit union's fault. Ticket prices are too high. Do you think fans are going to want to pay high prices for baseball tickets?

[blueroses]

Posted: 12/11/08 at 11:45pm

not.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:13am

Oh, right! Not!

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:29am

Blame the workers while management fleeces the company - the Republican way.

This double standard between blue collar and white collar workers is disgusting.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:33am

Absolutely. The Republican Senators were demanding the auto workers drop their pay to that of "Japanese Auto Workers" because, you know, they're exactly the same thing and the two cultures are identical and that would be the answer to everything yet the Republicans get all up in arms when the Democrats said maybe the cars Detroit makes from now on could be fuel efficient?

[Yawper]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:36am

"Blame the workers while management fleeces the company - the Republican way."

The worst thing is that the auto execs aren't as far out of line as the Wall St. execs are. These guys stole over 3x what Congress was voting to give teh automakers.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081212/bs_nm/us_madoff_arrest

The market plunge should be fun tomorrow unless Bush makes noise to prop it up. The Hang Seng and Nikkei both plunged after the vote.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:38am

Yet the wages offered by the UAW is comparable to those offered by Nissan and Toyota.

And, I read that 18 more non-union auto plants are planned to be opened in the South, where the Senators (who were more than happy to use state money to induce foreign auto plants to relocate) are killing this bill.

The demonization of Unions, while quietly letting management and financial "professionals" gorge themselves would be funny, if not so tragic.

And Yawper, I agree - where was this outrage and concern over 700 Billion?
Updated On: 12/12/08 at 12:38 AM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:43am

Demonization is something Roxy would never do. NOT!

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:48am

Two whole years? And how long was it going to take before "Drill, Baby, Drill" did us any good?

[Yawper]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:54am

Just wait until tomorrow. The Nikkei and Hang Seng plunged after the vote and Dow futures are already down more than 300 as I type.

http://money.cnn.com/data/premarket/

[Jack King]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:55am

Good time to get rid of the gestapo two-party system. This country needs several parties running. But are the voters smart enough to go for it?

That is a hoot about more non-union plants being built down south. :) Good end-zone run.

Senate squashed the bailout anyway. Good for them.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:56am

"Gestapo" and "two party" are mutually exclusive terms, jag.

Updated On: 12/12/08 at 12:56 AM

[RadiGal2]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 3:57am

What the Senate Republicans, and laying the lion's share of the blame on the UAW instead of on the folks at the top of the food chain decided what to make etc. etc. is reprehensible, immoral and beyond appalling.

The annoying part is...most sources show that Toyota and Nissan workers make two or three dollars an hour more in hourly wages....but I suspect their benefits package is not as robust.

This whole situation is a cancer. They will kill manufacturing with one fell swoop in this country and that will be the end of it.

[Yawper]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 5:11am

I can't wait to see the GOPers' heads explode when Bush ponies up TARP money for at least GM & Chrysler.

[danmag]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 7:06am

I don't think the govt. should bail out any industry. Are we not a capitalist society? Can't we let market forces work and let the chips fall where they may? I also think unions are completely antiquated. The unions killed the auto industry. But that's just my opinion.

[Yawper]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 7:19am

Pure capitalism only works if everybody plays by the same rules. Worldwide the reality is that no one plays by the same rules. Almost all of the foreign auto companies are getting or have access to funding packages from their governments.

Unions are not antiquated. Unions are the only factor keeping wages and benefits up at non-union companies. It's the union responsible for winning middle class wages, 40 hour work weeks, safety in the plants, and other benefits. Read how the auto plants are run and workers are treated in Japan if you believe otherwise.

[danmag]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 7:30am

Wage and hour laws, safety law, etc. have been the law for over 50 years. While the union movement may have assisted those efforts, current day unions have no relevance to the enforcement of those laws. As for the Japanese plants, at least they are run profitably. Believe me, most non-union companies are not providing the huge benefits that unionized industries receive (i.e. pensions, healthcare for retirees) because it is completely ineffective cost-wise. As harsh as that sounds, it's just the way it is. I certainly don't have a pension, nor will I have healthcare benefits when I retire. That sucks, but I think that's a healthcare issue, not a union issue. I think a company owes a worker a job, not lifetime care. Enough ranting from me - just had to get that off my chest! Back to the Bathing at KFC thread.

Updated On: 12/12/08 at 07:30 AM

[Yawper]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 7:53am

While the union movement may have assisted those efforts, current day unions have no relevance to the enforcement of those laws.

Wanna bet? Go with the immigration officials any time they raid a workplace and check the working conditions.

As for the Japanese plants, at least they are run profitably

so were plantations using slavery

I certainly don't have a pension, nor will I have healthcare benefits when I retire

Neither do the autoworkers under their most recent contract, yet most foreign companies in direct competition with US companies in common markets do have provisions for health care and pensions for their employees without having to carry the entire (if any) cost as the US companies do. Do US workers have to go without health care and pension benefits in order to be competitive in the world market while other workers have the advantage of those benefits?
Updated On: 12/12/08 at 07:53 AM

[danmag]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 8:03am

You'll never convince me that (many) unions aren't irrelevant and rife with corruption. I admit, my husband is a labor/employment attorney representing corporations, so I see the business side of the picture. I am definitely going to that KFC thread now - too much controversy for me!

Updated On: 12/12/08 at 08:03 AM

[Jack King]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 8:37am

It is NOT OK for the government to pay off the bloated big butt U.S. carmakers.

In perspective, the 35,000 workers "let go"* by by Bank of America won't very soon be re-hired. I know for a fact that financial outfits know dingdang well what they're doing when they fire people. And what will they do? What the news doesn't tell you is that they hire folks who will WORK FOR LESS!

(RE-"let go* Heh-going WHERE, boobalah?. Great euphemism.)

And sure, and BTW many of the massive layoffs we hear about are not permanent. Big flaw of the media. They love spreading gloom. Many businesses DO bring people back as well as replace them with people who will work cheaper.

DEEEE-TROIT HAD BEST SH*T-CAN THE UNION ENTIRELY!!! And much of carmaking is AUTOMATED. The union flunkies watch the automation.

I have no sympathy for the U.S. auto industry whatever. They unions have been raping the carmakers and hence the economy for many years. "Generous Motors" is what one fat cat told me who was a GM supplier. This guy was an auto parts-fetcher for such a supplier. He was paid very, very well.

So skimming the cream from the top applies to the suppliers as well. If you've ever had your plastic car side panel hit in an accident? Yes folks, that's plastic in my recent big buck$ Buick yet. I got the estimate from the body shop. The biggest part was replacing that hunk of plastic! However this old farm boy here did some schlemming and cutting. And I didn't need no new steeeenking panel. Just a slight dent shows. "We just can't fit it back into shape," said the body shop.

And we buy a brand new top line car every ten years. After that, it's impractical to keep. Deeee-troit ain't making any dough-re-me from us.

[Yawper]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 8:46am

that's plastic in my recent big buck$ Buick yet. I got the estimate from the body shop. The biggest part was replacing that hunk of plastic! However this old farm boy here did some schlemming and cutting. And I didn't need no new steeeenking panel. Just a slight dent shows. "We just can't fit it back into shape," said the body shop.

FYI, the automakers don't run your insurance company or your body shop.

[StickToPriest]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 9:43am

You're right, danmag, it is all the unions fault for thinking American workers deserve to be able to live and support themselves and a family for working hard for most of their life. And things like Ford paying CEO Alan Mulally $28 million for 4 months of work has nothing to do with it. But, no, it's the blue-collar workers' fault!

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 9:52am

"You're right, danmag, it is all the unions fault for thinking American workers deserve to be able to live and support themselves and a family for working hard for most of their life. And things like Ford paying CEO Alan Mulally $28 million for 4 months of work has nothing to do with it. But, no, it's the blue-collar workers' fault! "

Great post.

The leaders of the automakers and the union are making me mad thought. I know a LOT of people who work for (or used to work for) Ford...and they would rather take pay cuts or lose some benefits than lose their jobs. They are frustrated that their leaders are so stubborn about this situation.

[nygrl232]

Posted: 12/12/08 at 9:58am

Unions exist for a reason, danmag. Without them, workers WILL be exploited and abused.