#26
Posted: 12/12/08 at 10:25am
The UAW is having a presser right now streamed at http://www.wxyz.com/content/video/stream2.aspx is anyone's interested
Big 3 Bailout - The Senate Bails On It — Page 2
#27
Posted: 12/12/08 at 10:45am
You know, of course, that this whole thing, as usual...
...is all the queers' fault.
...is all the queers' fault.
#28
Posted: 12/12/08 at 11:11am
Let me state upfront that I'm not anti-union.
However, I did grow up in non-union NC and watched countless family members earn middle class wages in non-union plants located in the eastern part of the state.
I'm also currently a non-bargaining unit confidential employee in a union setting.
Unions are not absolutely necessary to sustain decent wages. Those southern Senators caught onto this years back. They know that they can continue to lure foreign auto manufacturers to their states while picking the collective carcass of the Big 3 apart.
Down south, land's cheap & abundant still; the cost of living is lower than the national average; crime rates are lower than the national average (outside Atlanta); the winters are more tolerable than those in the Great Lakes area; a couple of the states are right-to-work bastions and the folks are VERY hard working.
I know this is a terrible metaphor, but it's the 2nd installment of the US Civil War. Only this time, foreign capitalists set up in the south (and their agents in Congress) have replaced their antebellum agrarian counterparts. Just like Jefferson Davis stole confederate gold, a few southern Senators are hell bent on looting Detroit. Their families lost farming clout to Texas and the mid-west so this is their way of reclaiming prominence. Both revisionist history and egos are at play here.
Barack Obama-Joe Biden carrying NC & VA was to me the harbinger of things to come. Those southerners want JOBS not WAR and their sons and daughters back home from west coast & NE cities. They'll get them even if it means throwing another region under the bus. Detroit is no longer the nation's sacred cow and if Wall Street doesn't get its act together, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York might be high-tailing it to Dixie down the road too.
I probably shouldn't make this bold assertion but if those southern senators are successful at breaking the back of the UAW and affiliates, teachers unions in states with major urban centers are next and Obama-Biden will be left to fiddle.
And gentle reader, please brace yourself for the re-surgence of Mike Huckabee.
it's union busting plain and simple
However, I did grow up in non-union NC and watched countless family members earn middle class wages in non-union plants located in the eastern part of the state.
I'm also currently a non-bargaining unit confidential employee in a union setting.
Unions are not absolutely necessary to sustain decent wages. Those southern Senators caught onto this years back. They know that they can continue to lure foreign auto manufacturers to their states while picking the collective carcass of the Big 3 apart.
Down south, land's cheap & abundant still; the cost of living is lower than the national average; crime rates are lower than the national average (outside Atlanta); the winters are more tolerable than those in the Great Lakes area; a couple of the states are right-to-work bastions and the folks are VERY hard working.
I know this is a terrible metaphor, but it's the 2nd installment of the US Civil War. Only this time, foreign capitalists set up in the south (and their agents in Congress) have replaced their antebellum agrarian counterparts. Just like Jefferson Davis stole confederate gold, a few southern Senators are hell bent on looting Detroit. Their families lost farming clout to Texas and the mid-west so this is their way of reclaiming prominence. Both revisionist history and egos are at play here.
Barack Obama-Joe Biden carrying NC & VA was to me the harbinger of things to come. Those southerners want JOBS not WAR and their sons and daughters back home from west coast & NE cities. They'll get them even if it means throwing another region under the bus. Detroit is no longer the nation's sacred cow and if Wall Street doesn't get its act together, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York might be high-tailing it to Dixie down the road too.
I probably shouldn't make this bold assertion but if those southern senators are successful at breaking the back of the UAW and affiliates, teachers unions in states with major urban centers are next and Obama-Biden will be left to fiddle.
And gentle reader, please brace yourself for the re-surgence of Mike Huckabee.
it's union busting plain and simple
#FactsMatter...your feelings not so much.
#29
Posted: 12/12/08 at 11:11am
The point I wanted to make (irrespective of my feelings about unions) is that if these businesses are failing, why are we going to dump billions of dollars into them. Maybe one of the big three will have to go - almost every industry is suffering in this economy (the tourism industry employs many more people than the auto industry, but we aren't bailing them out). It just seems like a never-ending cycle that is just going to leave us with a mountain of debt. I don't think the government can "buy" us out of a recession by bailing out industry after industry. It's just a cycle of the econmy (albeit an awful one). I think the Big Three should file for bankruptcy and try to restructure that way.
"This show had the WORST magnets on Broadway!"
Updated On: 12/12/08 at 11:11 AM
#30
Posted: 12/12/08 at 11:22am
I love when people get all dispassionate about things like, "Oh, let's just let the market dictate everything and let the American automakers fail" as if the industry exists in a bubble. In this country, so many industries and lives of real people are interconnected and interdependent.
Gen.Wesley Clark points out that the bailout is a national security issue. Which industry do we think creates vehicles for the military? When countries are at war, vehicle producers produce for their home countries and aren't particularly concerned with the needs of of countries (and armies) that are not their own.
But sure, take one way or another yes or no stances here on BWW, because here it's all just (not particularly thought out) theory.
Gen.Wesley Clark points out that the bailout is a national security issue. Which industry do we think creates vehicles for the military? When countries are at war, vehicle producers produce for their home countries and aren't particularly concerned with the needs of of countries (and armies) that are not their own.
But sure, take one way or another yes or no stances here on BWW, because here it's all just (not particularly thought out) theory.
Twitter @NamoInExile
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#31
Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:36pm
Have some big person explain the parallel in my writeup. :)
Cheers!
Got more true stories for you. I once had to belong to a performers AND a techy union. When I left this particular "profession" for good to make some GOOD money, the union dues I paid in were supposed to accumulate and pay me a retirement. Gosh folks, those funds sort of like "got lost."
Unions are CROOKS!
Then I worked for several colleges and had to join a union. By the time the union got all their money from me, I netted THREE DOLLARS EXTRA in my paycheck.
Unions are CROOKS.
These are true stories.
Cheers!
Got more true stories for you. I once had to belong to a performers AND a techy union. When I left this particular "profession" for good to make some GOOD money, the union dues I paid in were supposed to accumulate and pay me a retirement. Gosh folks, those funds sort of like "got lost."
Unions are CROOKS!
Then I worked for several colleges and had to join a union. By the time the union got all their money from me, I netted THREE DOLLARS EXTRA in my paycheck.
Unions are CROOKS.
These are true stories.
#32
Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:41pm
I have no way of actually knowing how many posters on this board are ACTUALLY in a business that has a union picking their pockets. My guess is that there are VERY FEW people here that are from the knee-jerk responses. I have yet to see an actual case history of folks here working under a union.
I have.
And I get the feeling I'm one of the few here, if not the ONLY one.
Oh well, this board is at least entertaining. But full of capons.
I have.
And I get the feeling I'm one of the few here, if not the ONLY one.
Oh well, this board is at least entertaining. But full of capons.
#33
Posted: 12/12/08 at 12:44pm
Maybe you should read the fine print Jack. You obviously didn't work long enough or earn enough in either union to be vested into their retirement plans.
And your union dues do not go towards pension, those funds are paid into the plans by the employer. Your union dues go toward paying the administrative cost of the union.
You should know of what you speak before you try to use your "stories" as examples.
P.S. I've been a member of Equity for 35 years...and I'm very happy that I'm a union member. When I reach retirement... I will have a sizable pension to look forward to. Thanks to the union. Plus a 401K.
And your union dues do not go towards pension, those funds are paid into the plans by the employer. Your union dues go toward paying the administrative cost of the union.
You should know of what you speak before you try to use your "stories" as examples.
P.S. I've been a member of Equity for 35 years...and I'm very happy that I'm a union member. When I reach retirement... I will have a sizable pension to look forward to. Thanks to the union. Plus a 401K.
"Just a Guy. Your feelings are touching. I am gladdened by the thought that you will one day wind up 6 feet under as we all do." - MrRoxy ------
"I do not suggest you walk out the door onto a New York street with your vulnerable child part exposed and not protected..." - Jason Bennett
Updated On: 12/12/08 at 12:44 PM
#34
Posted: 12/12/08 at 1:06pm
I'm also a proud union member. My experience has been that, with the exception of our friend Sock King, the folks who are against unions are usually not in one. I think it's a funny quirk people have that makes them prefer to pull other people down to their sud-standard level if they perceive them to be getting something "extra", when raising everyone up to what is really just a reasonable standard of living actually makes more sense.
Art has a double face, of expression and illusion.
Updated On: 12/12/08 at 01:06 PM
#35
Posted: 12/12/08 at 1:13pm
"Gen.Wesley Clark points out that the bailout is a national security issue. Which industry do we think creates vehicles for the military?"
A family member of mine from SC sent me a note via e-mail while I was out to lunch. It included the following gem.
"The same way those politicos spread weapons manufacture throughout the 50 states, they can spread about automobile plants".
Who woulda thunk it...automobile manufacturing folded into the industrial-military complex that Ike warned us about.
A family member of mine from SC sent me a note via e-mail while I was out to lunch. It included the following gem.
"The same way those politicos spread weapons manufacture throughout the 50 states, they can spread about automobile plants".
Who woulda thunk it...automobile manufacturing folded into the industrial-military complex that Ike warned us about.
#FactsMatter...your feelings not so much.
#36
Posted: 12/12/08 at 3:59pm
javero--Good observation. & the Ike quote, "Beware of the military/industrial complex.
What is happening here is a shakedown of the U.S. auto industry. It is corrupt from the owners and admin down to the worker. Here are some truths to ponder.
*You can take people off street to watch over the machines that direct the assemblyline work.
*The maxim, "Figures lie and liars figure" applies here. And the U.S. Senate knows this well, from their own protective lair!
*Closest real world example: the railroads, who were rife with overpaid flunkies. And guess what? The railroads are still in operation. Didn't kill the railroads.
*The Deeee-triot rank and file flunkies will just have to get real jobs.
*The U.S. Senate is NOT going to make the same bail-out Wall Street scam.
*Unions suck. I gave my personal account elsewhere here regarding unions. The unions CAN'T be fixed. They are too corrupt to fix themselves.
What is happening here is a shakedown of the U.S. auto industry. It is corrupt from the owners and admin down to the worker. Here are some truths to ponder.
*You can take people off street to watch over the machines that direct the assemblyline work.
*The maxim, "Figures lie and liars figure" applies here. And the U.S. Senate knows this well, from their own protective lair!
*Closest real world example: the railroads, who were rife with overpaid flunkies. And guess what? The railroads are still in operation. Didn't kill the railroads.
*The Deeee-triot rank and file flunkies will just have to get real jobs.
*The U.S. Senate is NOT going to make the same bail-out Wall Street scam.
*Unions suck. I gave my personal account elsewhere here regarding unions. The unions CAN'T be fixed. They are too corrupt to fix themselves.
#37
Posted: 12/12/08 at 7:57pm
"My experience has been that, with the exception of our friend Sock King, the folks who are against unions are usually not in one."
Not so simple. I live in a small town and know many union workers. Some unions are ineffectual in todays economic/market arena. The UFCW locally pays one of my friends $8.30/hr after working at the same place full time for 3 years. Yes, there are health benefits and long term IRA;s etc. but still! She will have to work 10 years under the existing contract to bring in $13. /hr. (She is a young adult who still must live with her parents because of her sub-living scale.) Down the road there's a non-union coop that offers better pay and benefits. Just one example.
In today's economy, to just get by on one's own, one needs to earn $36./hr.
In my own experience with unions, the union only provides a minimum. You still have to personally bargain, either by yourself or through an agent, to get the good pay and benefits.
EDIT: to make the above reference to my UFCW worker friend more accurate, she has not worked full time all three years srtraight. She works full time when she can but the store cuts back her hours to as little as 20/wk at slow times of the year, like for instance the upcoming Jan Feb into March period. At present she is on full time.
Not so simple. I live in a small town and know many union workers. Some unions are ineffectual in todays economic/market arena. The UFCW locally pays one of my friends $8.30/hr after working at the same place full time for 3 years. Yes, there are health benefits and long term IRA;s etc. but still! She will have to work 10 years under the existing contract to bring in $13. /hr. (She is a young adult who still must live with her parents because of her sub-living scale.) Down the road there's a non-union coop that offers better pay and benefits. Just one example.
In today's economy, to just get by on one's own, one needs to earn $36./hr.
In my own experience with unions, the union only provides a minimum. You still have to personally bargain, either by yourself or through an agent, to get the good pay and benefits.
EDIT: to make the above reference to my UFCW worker friend more accurate, she has not worked full time all three years srtraight. She works full time when she can but the store cuts back her hours to as little as 20/wk at slow times of the year, like for instance the upcoming Jan Feb into March period. At present she is on full time.
Updated On: 12/12/08 at 07:57 PM
#38
Posted: 12/12/08 at 8:18pm
Big 3 & unions are ruining lots of lives. The limited skills folks who run the dummy computers will get hurt.
I tried to tell the truth about the college system union here and got no-place. The State of MN does just fine with their own Snivel Service payscale. Very generous. It's just that the work is so repetitive and boring that I quit.
Actually the biggest college I worked for had NO union. It was when I sought greener pastures that the next college in the system had voted in the union. Really dumb.
So fugtheunion. You gotta problem with that? I'll send a couple guys to see ya!
I tried to tell the truth about the college system union here and got no-place. The State of MN does just fine with their own Snivel Service payscale. Very generous. It's just that the work is so repetitive and boring that I quit.
Actually the biggest college I worked for had NO union. It was when I sought greener pastures that the next college in the system had voted in the union. Really dumb.
So fugtheunion. You gotta problem with that? I'll send a couple guys to see ya!
#39
Posted: 12/12/08 at 9:10pm
"I tried to tell the truth about the college system union here and got no-place."
No...what you told...was "your" truth...such as it is. I'm sure there are union members in the college system who are perfectly happy with being union members. So..."your" truth may work for you...but it certainly doesn't make it "the" truth for others.
"It was when I sought greener pastures that the next college in the system had voted in the union."
Hmmmm, I'm wondering what exactly made the pastures greener?? Salary? Benefits? Job Security? Of course a union would have nothing to do with that. Right?
"In today's economy, to just get by on one's own, one needs to earn $36./hr."
According to who? That's $1,440 a week based on a 40 hour week, or nearly $75,000 a year. Surely, one can "just get by" on less?
According to payscale.com the average attorney makes just about $75,000 a year.
No...what you told...was "your" truth...such as it is. I'm sure there are union members in the college system who are perfectly happy with being union members. So..."your" truth may work for you...but it certainly doesn't make it "the" truth for others.
"It was when I sought greener pastures that the next college in the system had voted in the union."
Hmmmm, I'm wondering what exactly made the pastures greener?? Salary? Benefits? Job Security? Of course a union would have nothing to do with that. Right?
"In today's economy, to just get by on one's own, one needs to earn $36./hr."
According to who? That's $1,440 a week based on a 40 hour week, or nearly $75,000 a year. Surely, one can "just get by" on less?
According to payscale.com the average attorney makes just about $75,000 a year.
"Just a Guy. Your feelings are touching. I am gladdened by the thought that you will one day wind up 6 feet under as we all do." - MrRoxy ------
"I do not suggest you walk out the door onto a New York street with your vulnerable child part exposed and not protected..." - Jason Bennett
Updated On: 12/12/08 at 09:10 PM
#40
Posted: 12/12/08 at 11:04pm
According to the place where I'm living. Where rent is 1/4 of a 36/hr paycheck. A real estate broker friend of mine said that this is the minimum you need to earn to qualify for a home with today's housing prices.
Certainly you don't think that $8.30/hr even at full time is a living wage, but it is a union wage. Consider also that this woman pays $40./mo union dues whether she works 20 or 40 hrs / week. She also had to pay a $200. "initiation fee" at the outset
PS your scale chart may be true nationwide, but it looks low for this area, 75,000 for an attorney looks more like entry level. Likewise the rates listed for construction managers and software engineers. Locally I know people in all three categories who are making well over $150,000 yr.
If you want to raise a family, send kids to college (which financially should be a viable option whether you choose to do this or not) ... I'd say 36. is minimum wage.
Certainly you don't think that $8.30/hr even at full time is a living wage, but it is a union wage. Consider also that this woman pays $40./mo union dues whether she works 20 or 40 hrs / week. She also had to pay a $200. "initiation fee" at the outset
PS your scale chart may be true nationwide, but it looks low for this area, 75,000 for an attorney looks more like entry level. Likewise the rates listed for construction managers and software engineers. Locally I know people in all three categories who are making well over $150,000 yr.
If you want to raise a family, send kids to college (which financially should be a viable option whether you choose to do this or not) ... I'd say 36. is minimum wage.
Updated On: 12/13/08 at 11:04 PM
#41
Posted: 12/13/08 at 4:34am
I work in a profession that pays quite well and has NO UNION DUES! I'm my own man and work with other professionals who don't need no steeeenkeeeeng unions. It would be a complete non sequitur.
Unions are for people who are in marginal, oppressive businesses where they would be otherwise exploited. However it apparently never occurred to the working place oppressed to simply get together and be their own "union" that would not include the dickheads who run unions. No dues. DUH!!!
Just good people volunteering themselves to organize for their own good.
BTW there were a LOT more great musicals and plays made BEFORE unions reared their gorgonish heads.
I remain,
jk
Unions are for people who are in marginal, oppressive businesses where they would be otherwise exploited. However it apparently never occurred to the working place oppressed to simply get together and be their own "union" that would not include the dickheads who run unions. No dues. DUH!!!
Just good people volunteering themselves to organize for their own good.
BTW there were a LOT more great musicals and plays made BEFORE unions reared their gorgonish heads.
I remain,
jk
#42
Posted: 12/13/08 at 5:02am
I bet you believe in the "new economy," too.
#43
Posted: 12/13/08 at 5:05am
The Big 3 ripoff car companies are going the way of the railroads, who were also responsible for their own decline with featherbed unions.
Generous Motors etal are doomed to failure. Throwing money at them would be like trying to save three Titanics. Let these ships sink.
Any bailout money would be entirely wasted.
You can't bail water out of this trio with so many holes in the hulls. Let them keel over.
I remain,
jk
Generous Motors etal are doomed to failure. Throwing money at them would be like trying to save three Titanics. Let these ships sink.
Any bailout money would be entirely wasted.
You can't bail water out of this trio with so many holes in the hulls. Let them keel over.
I remain,
jk
#44
Posted: 12/13/08 at 7:33am
Unions are for people who are in marginal, oppressive businesses where they would be otherwise exploited.
I would not consider the automotive industry to be "marginal". Neither would I call the food industry "marginal". With the UFCW from what I see, the food retail business is oppressive, exploitative and unionized, at least on the corporation level. This indicates a failing in the corporate system. If employees make a living, food is intolerably expensive.
Food can however be locally produced and distributed through cooperatives allowing a better pay for the producers and workers, but not so with automobiles.
I would not consider the automotive industry to be "marginal". Neither would I call the food industry "marginal". With the UFCW from what I see, the food retail business is oppressive, exploitative and unionized, at least on the corporation level. This indicates a failing in the corporate system. If employees make a living, food is intolerably expensive.
Food can however be locally produced and distributed through cooperatives allowing a better pay for the producers and workers, but not so with automobiles.
#45
Posted: 12/13/08 at 7:35am
anti-union = plantation mentality
#46
Posted: 12/13/08 at 7:43am
anti-union = plantation mentality
Not so. Look at the cooperatives.
Not so. Look at the cooperatives.
#47
Posted: 12/13/08 at 8:41am
I suggest going back to horses or some other beast of burden for transportation. LLamas? Camels? I'd walk a mile for a camel.
#48
Posted: 12/13/08 at 8:48am
"If you want to raise a family, send kids to college (which financially should be a viable option whether you choose to do this or not) ... I'd say 36. is minimum wage."
So...the current federal minimum wage is something like $6.65 an hour...you really think that it should be raised to 6 times that amount? Seriously...don't hold your breath on that one. I can't see your local pizza place paying their delivery person $36 an hour to deliver pizzas. If they do...I'll take the job.
Here's the entry level...salaries for attorneys that I could find on payscale.com, broken down city by city.
And here is one based on the type of practice.
Note that these are MEDIAN salaries, not highest or lowest...your friends may make more because of years of experience or specialization in their fields...I have no way of knowing. But in any case...these are jobs which require a college education and training,something that minimum wage workers usually do not have.
So...the current federal minimum wage is something like $6.65 an hour...you really think that it should be raised to 6 times that amount? Seriously...don't hold your breath on that one. I can't see your local pizza place paying their delivery person $36 an hour to deliver pizzas. If they do...I'll take the job.
Here's the entry level...salaries for attorneys that I could find on payscale.com, broken down city by city.
And here is one based on the type of practice.
Note that these are MEDIAN salaries, not highest or lowest...your friends may make more because of years of experience or specialization in their fields...I have no way of knowing. But in any case...these are jobs which require a college education and training,something that minimum wage workers usually do not have.
"Just a Guy. Your feelings are touching. I am gladdened by the thought that you will one day wind up 6 feet under as we all do." - MrRoxy ------
"I do not suggest you walk out the door onto a New York street with your vulnerable child part exposed and not protected..." - Jason Bennett
Updated On: 12/13/08 at 08:48 AM
#49
Posted: 12/13/08 at 9:08am
"BTW there were a LOT more great musicals and plays made BEFORE unions reared their gorgonish heads."
And there are still many non-union venues where these "great musicals and plays" can be produced.
And there are still many non-union venues where these "great musicals and plays" can be produced.
"Just a Guy. Your feelings are touching. I am gladdened by the thought that you will one day wind up 6 feet under as we all do." - MrRoxy ------
"I do not suggest you walk out the door onto a New York street with your vulnerable child part exposed and not protected..." - Jason Bennett
#50
Posted: 12/13/08 at 9:16am
Co-ops and unions work on the same principle - they don't clash.
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