Can we discuss Michael Jackson?

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/22/24 at 2:41pm

The person, and not just the music. Such a complicated life, which obviously broke him. I’m not sure if this thread would survive mention of certain accusation, especially what with a Broadway musical running.

Where to start?

Do you still listen to his work?

Was he gay?

Was societal oppression and personal suppression a leading cause of his multiple problems?

Why are so many people so quick to defend him?

[darquegk]

Posted: 9/23/24 at 11:21am

I watched the movie I Saw the TV Glow last night, and afterwards, while reading discourse on it, I saw Michael Jackson come up constantly. The film is a story about an autism-coded Black male from a repressive home, who winds up locked in a permanent childlike state while his trauma and his repressed gender and sexual identity issues both battle him with increasing severity.

My hypothesis on Jackson is, "maybe he wasn't a predator, but he was still a creep. A genius, once in a lifetime talent, but still untrustworthy and dangerous whether or not he had malicious intent." Probably SOMEWHERE under the queer umbrella, and quite likely somewhere on the neurodivergence spectrum too.

One fact about him that I find interesting is his use of babies and toddlers as almost romanticized fashion accessories during the eighties, using Black children almost as stand-ins for the "friend, baby, partner" status Bubbles the Monkey would acquire later in his career. In a strange way, it makes me think he wasn't an overt predator, because if you need to hide in plain sight, you don't use little boys as accessories in your public image so blatantly.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/23/24 at 1:21pm

Thank you, interesting.

I think I’d like your hypothesis to be correct, but I have my doubts. How could such a man-child have the self-awareness to write a song like “Childhood”? Or such a socially conscious one like “They Don’t Care About Us”?

I think he was 100% gay, fearful of being disfellowshipped from the Jehovah’s Witnesses and losing the love of his family. Throw in child stardom and a violent father… and you get Michael Jackson. A life DESTROYED by homophobic and misogynistic mindsets, and one which dragged other young lives down with it.

The thing that really bothers me is that this aspect of his story is completely erased and never talked about. Closeted men are also a significant part of gay history and perhaps some lessons could be learned.

[darquegk]

Posted: 9/23/24 at 11:27pm

Have you seen the clip where he slips for a second and drops the feminine, American neutral voice and speaks in a midwestern black man’s baritone for a second, then shifts back? It’s kind of haunting: for just a second we see a different person under the affectations and madness.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 10/3/24 at 5:15pm

No, I’ve never seen that. Creepy indeed. I guess all gay people have some experience in performative cover-up, especially of MJ’s generation… but usually it is the reverse… disguising the feminine side of ourselves!

I was watching Joker again recently in anticipation of Folie a Deux, and remembered the minor controversy over the soundtrack. The now iconic "descending the stairway" scene. Why wasn’t that deserving of condemnation and cancellation? How can audiences still enjoy it?

For fans of Michael Jackson’s work, should it even matter if he is guilty or not? Can we just sit back and enjoy?

[darquegk]

Posted: 10/3/24 at 5:45pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CDTafX3NsY

The clip in question is at about 2:30. "Big Red... not just red, Big Red." Then he puts the Michael voice back on.

[amygleason]

Posted: 10/7/24 at 11:48pm

darquegk said: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CDTafX3NsY geometry dash lite

The clip in question is at about 2:30. "Big Red... not just red, Big Red." Then he puts the Michael voice back on."

This is actually heartbreaking! He never had a life outside of fame, ever. No privacy, anonymity, no identity other than the performer, and dad, but even then that was skewed. He was very talented and I appreciate his work but the price he paid seems too high. When I first heard his song Childhood is the day I felt sorry for him. RIP, MJ

Updated On: 10/7/24 at 11:48 PM

[darquegk]

Posted: 10/8/24 at 2:36pm

One of the saddest commercials ever made is his late career Pepsi commercial, where he's sitting at the piano in his "final form," just radiating sadness. And then the spirit of his young, black child self appears to sing to him and comfort him.

[Zeppie2022]

Posted: 10/10/24 at 6:58pm

Where to start?

Do you still listen to his work? - No.  That being said, albums "Off the Wall" and "Thriller" were brilliant

Was he gay? - Who cares? I would hope people would just care about his talent not who he slept with

Was societal oppression and personal suppression a leading cause of his multiple problems?

Abusive father and pressure to make hit songs probably the main cause IMO

Why are so many people so quick to defend him?

He was a child star and continued to be immensely talented (singer, dancer, songwriter etc.) as an adult artist. He may have been kind of weird to put it kindly, but I think most people felt he did not have a mean bone in his body.

[binau]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 1:58am

I am personally convinced that Michael Jackson was a predator - and people can do whatever they want to explain it or rationalise it but I think what he did was wrong and I would not be surprised if he was alive today that he would have had further court cases and be in prison. However, given that ESPECIALLY as he is dead I find it absolutely ridiculous that anyone should try and cancel (censorship) his art for those that want to enjoy it. As a public individual, his reputation is free game but NO ONE should be able to tell us what art we can consume or not consume because of the moral transgressions of the artist. Art is art. For those who try to suppress what entertainment we can choose to listen to - get out of my bedroom, get out of my living room, get out of my headphones - it has nothing to do with you. Go and find another cause to complain about. 

Updated On: 10/11/24 at 01:58 AM

[Zeppie2022]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 11:08pm

"However, given that ESPECIALLY as he is dead I find it absolutely ridiculous that anyone should try and cancel (censorship) his art for those that want to enjoy it. As a public individual, his reputation is free game but NO ONE should be able to tell us what art we can consume or not consume because of the moral transgressions of the artist. Art is art. For those who try to suppress what entertainment we can choose to listen to - get out of my bedroom, get out of my living room, get out of my headphones - it has nothing to do with you. Go and find another cause to complain about. "

Far as I know, you can still buy MJ's music. He had a show about his life on Broadway so does not look like anybody is trying to cancel him. 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 10/12/24 at 12:49pm

I'm not trying to cancel MJ's music. Part of the reason I started this thread was to maybe find a way where I could listen to his music again, free from guilty and icky feelings. I've kinda come to a compromize... I can listen to the Jackson 5 Motown stuff. Surely that is just an innocent kid thrown into a pit of molten lava.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 10/12/24 at 12:57pm

Zeppie, the only reason I care if MJ was gay or not is because I feel it is an important aspect of his story that is always left out. Some people NEVER come out, but that does not mean they weren't gay. Maybe if homophobic fckers like RonDeSantis could see the serious damage they cause, and its rippling effect, they might stop.

[Zeppie2022]

Posted: 10/12/24 at 7:55pm

"Zeppie, the only reason I care if MJ was gay or not is because I feel it is an important aspect of his story that is always left out. Some people NEVER come out, but that does not mean they weren't gay."

I think the general consensus was the MJ was gay and that his "big kiss" and relationship with Lisa Marie Presley was a sham. We live in different times today, so we have to be reminded at times that it was very hard years ago for people to "come out". I will just agree to disagree with you, I don't think his sexual orientation was that big a part of his story. The main story to me was that he was abused as a child. He was a child star and knew he was responsible for the livelihood of the entire Jackson family. Then he had to transition from being more than the cute kid and become adult solo pop star. He made "Thriller" which was a hugely successful album. His MTV videos from that album were revolutionary. The pressure to do follow-up to that album must have been so hard on him. In the end, we will never really know if he was gay. 

Updated On: 10/12/24 at 07:55 PM

[Zeppie2022]

Posted: 10/12/24 at 8:00pm

"I'm not trying to cancel MJ's music. Part of the reason I started this thread was to maybe find a way where I could listen to his music again, free from guilty and icky feelings. I've kinda come to a compromize... I can listen to the Jackson 5 Motown stuff. Surely that is just an innocent kid thrown into a pit of molten lava."

I have always separated the personal life of a performer from their art. I can appreciate their talent even though they may not be a decent human being. If a person is a scumbag and you don't want to contribute money to them because of their personal behavior, I understand. If you already bought his music, why listen to some parts of his career but not others. To each their own.

Updated On: 10/12/24 at 08:00 PM