Does Art Require Suffering?

#1

Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:08pm

Do you have to suffer to create a great piece of art? Is it necessary? Do you gain something from pain such as the pain in your feet from ballet dancing or the sense of loss at the death of a loved one that inspires art?

Does learning to do without enhance focus?

Is suffering somehow a component of art or of the maturing of the soul to enhance creative ability?

Thoughts?

#2

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:10pm

No. And, I have been taught and do believe that the notion of the "suffering artist" is BS. An artist has to keep a roof over his or her head and food in their stomach. And an artist can create great work in the best of times. Is it easy to write when we are sad or angry? Of course. But, it is not a requirement. And I don't believe that suffering for the sake of suffering makes any sense.

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johnraymondbarker.com

#3

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:13pm

I think the result of a process you thoroughly enjoy can be even better than the result of process you have to suffer through...

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In the real world the only people who burst into song are the hopelessly deranged...

#4

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:13pm

This may be one of the best discussion topics I have ever seen on this board.

I think about this all the time, as a musician, and I always come up with a slightly different answer. (Depends on my mood, I guess! )

I think, that to produce art of any meaning, and art that will move someone *else*, it needs to come from an emotional place. Now, whether that place is a happy, light place, or a dark place is neither here nor there, and I think the resultant piece of art will reflect the place from whence it came; it just needs to come from *some*where, you know? Otherwise, it's just a technical exercise...

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#5

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:14pm

What about the suffering of the audience?

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#6

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:15pm

Very good point, Jaily!
There's no art without some kind of emotions involved...

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In the real world the only people who burst into song are the hopelessly deranged...

#7

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:17pm

I always say that I write better when I'm miserable, but I think it has more to do with the fact that for me, miserable = isolation = more time to write.

#8

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:19pm

when I am angry, I write. My best work has been done when I am angry, or extremely upset.......is that suffering? not sure

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It is ridiculous to set a detective story in New York City. New York City is itself a detective story... AGATHA CHRISTIE, Life magazine, May 14, 1956

#9

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:22pm

Art requires passion, not suffering.

#10

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:25pm

jrb_actor, when you suffer a loss, one beyond your ability to control and that you played no part in, those very deep feelings may seek expression into art. Sometimes it is a place to put the sorrow to release it or to put the love that you can no longer express because the person isn't there anymore.

Plays like A Long Day's Journey Into Night come from that place.

Even behind some great comedy, like Chris Durang's, there is a great deal of suffering handled with satire.

So maybe it begs the question of what is suffering.

Jaily's right that emotions are involved. It's amazing that you can put words and/or music notes on a paper and someone else can pick it up, far away, and experience the conveyed emotion and laugh or cry with you.

#11

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:25pm

I like JohnPopa's succinct response.

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johnraymondbarker.com

#12

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:26pm

I agree with JohnPopa.

#13

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:32pm

JohnPapa, take someone who is in love and happy and not involved in the arts, maybe in another occupation, medicine or a profession.

And then something happens. War. Death. That sorrows them greatly, and they then express it in art.

Without the loss or suffering, their passion would not have been realized, it is their sense of loss that becomes passion and is expressed into art.

So I think your quick answer doesn't take that into consideration.

Updated On: 8/17/06 at 02:32 PM

#14

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:34pm

But, plume, I think rarely does a "Long Day's Journey..." occur from in the midst of suffering. In fact, often work that comes from that deep a place is too self-indulgent. It becomes "therapy on stage" in many instances. I wrote some ANGRY stuff after the November election. I don't think I used any of it in Jerby: Fully Loaded. I wrote new stuff for the political section that was more level headed. If I had performed the stuff I had originally written, it would have been a disaster.

I think some distance allows the ability to create more palpable art. We can still draw from that place--but once some time has passed. And who knows how much time. An hour? A day? A month? A year? A decade? It all depends on the person.

I think that passion plus intellect creates the best art.

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johnraymondbarker.com

#15

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:38pm

I don't think your example of a non-artist who creates once they have been through suffering is fair.

Lots of non-artists created something out of happiness.

And thus, JohnPopa's statement is accurate and succinct. Passion can include suffering and happiness. Suffering doesn't include happiness. And suffering is not the only way to create art if one even believes that art must come from a place of overwhelming emotion, which I do not.

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johnraymondbarker.com

#16

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:38pm

jerby, that face you are making makes me want to do nasty thing to you!

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It is ridiculous to set a detective story in New York City. New York City is itself a detective story... AGATHA CHRISTIE, Life magazine, May 14, 1956

#17

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:39pm

but, elphaba, will that passion lead to art??

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johnraymondbarker.com

#18

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:45pm

Distance can be helpful for a lot of reasons, jrb. I agree distance can help. But the suffering and loss still occurred. O'Neill is mourning his mother in that play, expressing anger toward his father and evaluating a tortured relationship with his sadistic, and at the same time loving brother.

I agree I don't want to see someone's junk therapy onstage. But that may just be a difference in the quality of the art, the lyricism and metaphors or other qualities that give a work life and lift it out of the mundane.

Chris Durang's "Beyond Therapy" is one of the funniest plays I have ever seen onstage, coincidentally.

#19

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:47pm

Every artist is a cannibal
Every poet is a thief
They kill for inspiration
And sing about their grief -- U2

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#20

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:51pm

And then there are those who secretly, quietly observe...

:P

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johnraymondbarker.com

#21

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:54pm

hell yeah, it'll be art, baby.......it WILL be art! lolol

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It is ridiculous to set a detective story in New York City. New York City is itself a detective story... AGATHA CHRISTIE, Life magazine, May 14, 1956

Updated On: 8/17/06 at 02:54 PM

#22

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 2:58pm

Well, jrb, I did mention "great piece of art" not just any work of art.

I'm talking about one of those works that can stand the test of time in their appreciation.

I'm not encouraging people to go out there and suffer, I'm just wondering about it.

Buddhism talks a lot about your attachments as being the cause of your suffering. I'm not sure as that has any relation to the suffering behind the creation of art.

#23

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 3:02pm

"I'm talking about one of those works that can stand the test of time in their appreciation."

I believe Bach's works have passed that litmus test, and to the best of my knowledge, he had a fantastically happy life. Now whether he's the exception that proves the rule, who knows.

#24

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 3:07pm

"Now whether he's the exception that proves the rule, who knows."

You have given me my Zen koan of the day, DG.

#25

re: Does Art Require Suffering?

Posted: 8/17/06 at 4:21pm

An artist indeed suffers for his/her art. I believe that artists are more sensitive than the average person. We feel things more intensely, and that includes the bad as well as the good. We have higher highs and lower lows. It makes for a somewhat difficult life at times, but then again, I don't think any of us would have it any other way.

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