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#51

Donna Summer has died

Can someone clear this up?

When she went 'Born again Christian'.. didn't she go on an anti-gay tirade and said AIDS was a punishment for homosexuals?

Then she tried to back peddle and go on a tour for gay pride- but it didn't work and it failed miserably?
or something of that nature?

I'm on the fence about her.

talented or not- if this was true- it's even sadder that the 'queen of disco' -DISCO-....was anti gays.

it's perplexing



Updated On: 5/18/12 at 02:43 AM

#52

Donna Summer has died

This is an obviously biased article, but I linked to it above and I guess it's relevent http://www.donna-tribute.com/articles/99/rumor.htmlhttp://www.donna-tribute.com/articles/99/rumor.html

Personally, I have conflicting feelings. I feel she probably did say something--there's almost always truth to such rumours--I also really believe she regretted it (she has done the most inane interviews for a long time), and she had been with an especially gay friendly church in Nashvilled since then (as well as performing at Paul Jabara's funeral, though that could be taken either way). As I've said, other gay icons like Shirley Bassey have said, IMHO, worse things in print--which Donna never did--but have had their comments forgotten. Yet, because of the horribleness of the era Donna became an issue with the gay community (and one that's valid). I have had a weridly number of nights where older gay guys have got mad at me for requesting a Summer track. And I stand by her reaction http://www.donna-tribute.com/articles/99/rumor.htmlhttp://www.donna-tribute.com/articles/99/rumor.html

(and end rant)
#53

Donna Summer has died

Here's the real deal. She got messed up on drugs--like a lot of people did back then. And when she got clean, she fell into the hands of some people who were very born-again.

A lot of born-again people back then--both black and white--parroted the old Adam-and-Steve stuff. They still do. Other disco queens like Gloria Gaynor said similar things.

So did a lot of our families. We got angry at Donna because SHE of all people...

Well, "she of all people" was just one more addict trying to get off the drugs.

Whether or not she actually said the things attributed to her is probably partially true and partially untrue.

But when she was got sober--and OUT of the clutches of the born-again bigots--she understood how hurtful those prejudices were and she apologized for them.

She then proceeded to do years and years of fundraisers for gay and AIDS charities, never able to completely escape from accusations of homophobia.

But those of us who have made mistakes in our own lives, said hurtful things and lived to regret it, those of us who have loved her music, we chose to believe she had been F*CKed up by the drugs first and the drug of religion second, and we chose to forgive.


#54

Donna Summer has died

If our president gets to evolve regarding his opinions, I think Donna Summer deserves the same latitude.
"It does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg." -- Thomas Jefferson
#57

Donna Summer has died

An amazing vocalist and one of my favorite recording artists. I LOVED her. My parents had the On The Radio album and my sister and I were obsessed! That glorious fold out with Donna all glammed up was unforgettable. We used to listen to this as kids (along with the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack) and "play disco" in the living room. RIP to a stunning talent.
#58

Donna Summer has died

I remember the backlash against her among the gay community, and her later apologies. Since those came at a time when her career was stalling, it could be interpreted as backpedalling, but I'm not sure. Many people during the 80s and 90s evolved their feelings regarding the LGBT community, why not her?

Her voice was undeniable though...it soared like noone elses.

What is this about Shirley Bassey? What did she say that was so much worse?
"Carson has combined his passion for helping children with his love for one of Cincinnati's favorite past times - cornhole - to create a unique and exciting event perfect for a corporate outing, entertaining clients or family fun."

"In Oz, the verb is douchifizzation." PRS

#59

Donna Summer has died


Papa Can You Hear Me?
"The gods who nurse this universe think little of mortals' cares. They sit in crowds on exclusive clouds and laugh at our love affairs. I might have had a real romance if they'd given me a chance. I loved him, but he didn't love me. I wanted him, but he didn't want me. Then the gods had a spree and indulged in another whim. Now he loves me, but I don't love him." - Cole Porter
#60

Donna Summer has died

Question about which albums to get:

I have Endless Summer and the VH1 live album.

So I basically have her radio hits.

Which of her catalog albums has the best deep cuts worth having?

I was thinking about downloading Bad Girls.
....but the world goes 'round
#61

Donna Summer has died

tazber- You should get two albums: Once Upon a Time and the Bad Girls Deluxe Edition.

Once Upon a Time is a concept album of the Cinderella story (except now she's "working the midnight shift") and the music is fantastic.

The deluxe edition of Bad Girls is wonderfully remastered and has a bonus disc of all the 12" versions of the hits. If you only know the edited version of MacArthur Park you don't really know it!
Marie: Don't be in such a hurry about that pretty little chippy in Frisco. Tony: Eh, she's a no chip!
#62

Donna Summer has died

Those are definitely the two ones to get--and prove that she was that rarity in the disco world; an album artist.

Doodle Shirley Bassey told newspaper reporters in the early seventies how the thought of two men kissing or doing anything else made her physically ill, and a story about even though she was friends of the cast she had to leave a screening of Sunday Bloody Sunday to vomit in the bathroom.
#64

Donna Summer has died

Wasn't Bassey's first marriage (which I believe didn't end particularly well) to a gay man? That might have something to do with the virulence of her comments decades ago.

It seems as though later she came to value her status as a gay icon.
#65

Donna Summer has died

I actually never thought about that, but you are probably right. And certainly she does now value her gay fans (she wouldn't have a career otherwise). I just personally find it annoying how Donna Summer's comments (which again have never even been documented, unlike Bassey) always pop up, and not things others have said, though I know it's partly a question of the era they were said in.

BTW fans should track down the demo We're Going to Win, Donna Summer did, a "we'll overcome AIDS" ballad Paul Jabara wrote for her but David Geffen of all people decided if she released it it would ruin her career (he was also the one who told her not to record Jabara's It's Raining Men which was initially written for her and Barbra as a re-teaming of Enough is Enough). Geffen felt to change with the times, Donna should try to act more "black" (she was often criticized for appealing more to white fans).
#66

Donna Summer has died

Okay, this is going to be long because, as the kids say, I just can't. I have not said anything in any of the Donna Summer threads because it's horrible when somebody dies so young and I didn't want to take anything away from that or from anybody's grief, but as the story of her AIDS commentary continues to evolve all the way to Eric saying "which again have never even been documented," I just finally have to throw the history, etched in stone in my memory, as I recall it.

It was the very early-'80s. It was the most awful of times, it was the worst of times. The AIDS epidemic was growing exponentially on a weekly basis, and everybody was scared crapless.

Elton John, of all the queens on the planet earth, married a woman, that's how scared he was about his own homosexually active past. People from all social strata were doing anything possible to distance themselves from their own homosexual activity and associations with the gay community.

Donna Summer's first wave of success had ended as the disco sucks era took over. She was a mainstream disco artist, like the Bee-Gees, she was associated with a fad that was now no longer in fashion. She had her drug issues, and her work with Giorgio Moroder (without whom she would have been nothing) was over.

Ronald Reagan was the new president and he and his party seized the moment to ignite the culture wars in an concentrated effort to snuff out the liberation movements of the '60s and '70s including the ideas of free love and cocaine fueled disco decadence.

"Dance music," the untainted new mainstream term for "disco" had not taken hold yet. People like Donna Summer and The Village People were looking for ways to stay in the game without looking like has-beens of an embarrassing era. The poor Village People tried being "New Romantics" to jump on the synth-dance movement breaking in England at the time, along with their gay archetype costumes. It didn't work.

All this was going on when Miss Summer became a born-again Christian, which PalJoey remembers as the outcome of a struggle with drugs. It was after that that she did a show in Atlantic City, which had only recently had its first casinos open up. And one of the gay pop music writers of the Village Voice (I think it was Ed-something, who I am pretty sure became an editor at Billboard) covered the show. Because he was a gay man who loved Donna Summer.

In full disclosure mode, I was a gay punk rocker at the time and NOBODY hated gay disco more than gay punk rockers. We couldn't understand the very concept of having to dress up in expensive clothes and beg to be allowed to pay our way in to a club to dance to recordings of studio musicians playing behind mostly faceless, unnamed women singing. This is not to say that Donna Summer's records were not secret aural pleasures of mine. The Moroder era was remarkable with the synth work.

Summer had been away from the public for a little while by the time of the Atlantic City show, perhaps she had been to rehab and found the lord and all that. During the show, and I have no memory of what prompted Summer to say this (perhaps glancing at the crowd and how many men were there without women?), she said, "The Bible says God made Adam & Eve not Adam & Steve, but I still love you." This shocked the Voice writer, since the people who turned up for the comeback were mostly the only people who cared, gay male disco fans.

Later in the show, she threw in a little more testifying because basically that's what newly-minted born again Christians do, and she said that if people were interested in hearing more about how the lord saved her, she would be back out onstage after the show to talk about it.

It was in this smaller group that the Voice writer heard her talk about how God punishes sin and that AIDS was gay men's sin. You have to remember the times. Try to imagine a time before cellphones, where people went through life without telephones, still and movie cameras and voice recorders in their pockets. I don't even know if the Voice reporter had a photographer with him, or if he was sent by the paper to cover the show or if he was there as a paying fan. But a credentialed reporter writing in a newsweekly WAS the documentation. That's why you will not find a handheld phone camera video of Donna making the statement in 1981.

I remember reading this article, because I read the Voice every single week, and for those first eight years or so I read every single article I encountered that mentioned AIDS at all.

There was some backlash in the Voice at the time. There were a couple of letters to the editor of the "I find that hard to believe" and "Maybe that wasn't what she meant to say" variety, with the article writer saying, no, that's what she said, and he was there to hear it. He had no reason to be making this up. She wasn't some horrible person who deserved deflating. She was widely considered a dinosaur. He was there as a fan. He documented the experience. Not just during a throw away line onstage, but a "come down and chat and hear my biblical wisdom" small group discussion afterwards.

There was no response from Summer or her camp officially, because, who cares? This was the new zeitgeist. She said nothing that was out of line with the new Reagan era.

She did have gay friends who sort of attempted to explain the whole situation. Caftan-wearing producer Allan Carr (Grease, Can't Stop the Music) said in one interview that he was sure she did say those things, because she was a very naive woman and easily took on the opinions of those around her. Okay, he called her a naive girl. He explained that if there were a preacher who had made an impression on her, who had given her a framework (no matter how homophobic) that could help her make sense of her turbulent world, she more than likely latched onto it.

You have to remember, her career had not yet gotten its second post-disco wind. When she DID finally get that wind, she was embarrassed about her work on "Love to Love You" and "Bad Girls," and claimed she didn't really know what she was doing when Moroder had her simulate all those orgasms, which did lend credence to Carr's assertions that Summer's sails were blown by the prevailing winds and that she was naive. But extremely ambitious.

The career got the second wind, she was on the Geffen label after leaving the Casablanca label (known for disco and KISS) and was repositioned as a pop singer, not a disco diva. Eventually, she did the benefit for GMHC and THAT'S when there was some push back and Summer said she never said any such thing and besides nobody can prove it (which may not have been the smartest thing to say). You know all those historical references to the beginning of the AIDS epidemic where the focus is on the rare, brave people who didn't abandon people with AIDS? Well, the reason it was so rare was because so many people DID abandon people with AIDS and by extension gay men. Donna Summer was one of those people. She was not alone.

Look, we all tell ourselves all sorts of things to help us get past stupid things we've said and done. Denial is a VERY strong defense mechanism. Summer may have very well come to believe that she never said any such thing. But the writer was there. I don't find it surprising that the woman who smoked for 30 years was sure the lung cancer was from 9/11 dust. It just makes it easier to go on when "I didn't do anything!" allows you to not really think about your complicity.

I don't meant to take anything away from how much she meant to so many people. She did have a beautiful voice and she worked with people who crafted her work into masterful pop creations. I had a chance a couple of times in the past several years to see her live, but I couldn't get over the AIDS stuff. With her death, I find a sense of forgiveness. I can forgive the awful things somebody has said, but without them explicitly apologizing for it, I won't forget.
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none
#67

Donna Summer has died

That's more than fair, and the Voice article is archived online (at least I've read it online, naturally I can't seem to find it right now). By documented, I meant they had never been recorded or even directly quoted. I think it's also true that she was often hopelessly naive--her interviews are notoriously unreliable (listen to all the different versions she has told about recording Love to Love You Baby which tend to change depending on her thoughts of the song--from the 70s when she loved it, to the long era she was embarassed by it, to the last few years when she seemed to own up to it and started singing it live again). I want to be clear that I personally believe she must have said something--it didn't come out of nowhere. I also seem to remember the Village Voice reporting (and this is strictly my incredibly biased reading) seemed to even then greatly exagerate what was said and I do think--completely understandably--it got embellished from there by the gay fans and took a life of its own. I don't buy that she actually said that AIDS was a punishment from God, particularly as she was singing at friend's funerals, etc, at the time--I do think she definitely passed judgement on gay people.

(I do find it bizarre that Gay Prides still invite Gloria Gaynor to sing though after comments she has said to the press, and her admitting that the reason she does gay events is because she believes her voice will teach people the wrongs of their lifestyle--though of course money is the main factor, but that's neither here nor there).

One thing, she didn't stop working with Moroder to get out of disco. She did The Wanderer album, her first Geffen album, which is very much an early version of new wave in 1980 which was also post her born again conversion (the one weak spot on the album is the closure I Believe in Jesus which has some remarkably lame lyrics based on Mary Had a Little Lamb). The album got outstanding reviews--Rolling Stone picked it as their record of the year (which, for a magazine like Rolling Stone to say about the Queen of Disco wasw remarkable in and of itself). The album was a very minor success, but Geffen was displeased (he had signed Donna to what was then the biggest contract ever to be made in the recording industry).

Her and Moroder were at work on a big double album, similar to her 70s work but with a more current sound when Geffen very expensively pulled the plug and paired her with Quincy Jones (who was reportedly a huge jerk to her, shouting at her about her weight and talent, etc). The album eventually came out in the 90s in its unfinished form as I'm a Rainbow. Moroder wrote Flashdance for her, in 1983, but Geffen refused to allow her to sing it (ironically Casablanca leased one of the songs from Rainbow, Romeo, for the Flashdance soundtrack). And much to Geffen's annoyance, due to contractual issues, Donna owed Polygram who then owned Casablanca, one more album so he gave them She Works Hard for the Money, which of course gave her her biggest 80s hit (the album itself is largely IMHO embarassing and her most Christian with a number of songs thinly coded Jesus songs like He's a Rebel).

One of the producers of her 2001 unreleased "comeback" album have just leaked one of their songs for her, for anyone interested. Adoni http://soundcloud.com/2222music/donna-summer-adoni
#68

Donna Summer has died

I beg to differ on so, so, sooooooo many of your points, Eric. Your timeline is compressed and ahistorical.

Are you claiming you read the article, in 1981, in the Village Voice? It sounds to me like you are talking about an after-the-fact article discussing the controversy years later. I have looked for the original article, but the Voice digitized archive is incomplete and many of the fiche-like pages are creased, resulting in pages missing of the issues the archive does have.

"it got embellished from there by the gay fans and took a life of its own..."

This is your fantasy, this is made up in your head, and this is what you want to believe. It did not get embellished by gay fans and it took on no life of its own at all. Most of the disco gays couldn't have cared less. They loved that diva and nothing was going to change their feelings.

You have to understand how terribly the beginning of the epidemic affected people in epicenter cities. EVERYBODY wanted to find the way they were different from the unlucky bastards being felled by the new gay cancer. Many of us actually DID believe we were being punished supernaturally. It was impossible to be raised in this culture without taking in all sorts of things that become buttons waiting to be pushed by the likes of Jerry Falwell and Anita Bryant and Ronald Reagan. Throw in a mysterious deadly disease and, hell, if you feel bad enough and scared enough, you might have actually believed Donna Summer had a point. THAT is what it was like to be alive in that moment.

In the mainstream media, nobody was defending gay people anywhere so there was no life of its own for the Summer story to take on. There was no such thing as "Entertainment Media" on TV every night. The Village Voice was a scruffy practically underground weekly but one thing it consistently did was report on the gay community, because it was the Village Voice. Most people never even knew about the story, except Voice readers and people who knew about it when it happened. Nothing much was discussed about it until she did the GMHC benefit, but that was a few years later, which was a significant amount of time in the timeline of AIDS.

Donna Summer had not sung at any funerals of friends who had died of AIDS before the Atlantic City concert. As the years went by, I do believe Summer probably did sing at the funerals of friends, or at least show up at them. I mean, she said she did but using your standards there's no documentation so I will just have to take her word for it.

You obviously have some Donna Summer investment in this, what with you throwing up Gloria Gaynor's quotes as *worse* than Summer's (as if that mitigates what Summer said) and imagining the quotes of Summer's being embellished. I am telling you what the two quotes were. The source, the documentation, is the original article, written by the man who was there, corroborated by other gay men who joined the small group at the stage.

I don't have an investment in beatifying or crucifying Summer. I do, however, have an investment in trying to remind people of the truth of the early years of the AIDS crisis, which was THE most profound catastrophe of my lifetime (and let it be the worst, please god).

And just so you know, The Wanderer album was not a "very much an early version of new wave." No. It was not. New Wave was going for three years before that album came out. But she had nothing to do with it. It's like calling Linda Ronstadt's execrable Elvis Costello covers "new wave." They were not. There may have been some sonic trappings that were appropriated for Linda, and for Donna on The Wanderer, but Donna Summer had nothing to do with new wave, in exactly the same way The Village People did not suddenly "become" new romantic when they released their "Renaissance" album.

I'm not really interested in debating this with you. I am telling you what happened because I was observing it all very closely. I was a Village Voice subscriber for ten years and had it delivered to my home from the age of 15. I read it all, it all meant a LOT to me. I put out a punk rock fanzine starting in 1979, worked in a record store until 1985. While I appreciate you attempting this sort of musical overview, it has little to do with the important part of the long post I wrote, and much of what you wrote is inaccurate. It was history that I lived.
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none
#69

Donna Summer has died

The currently available Village Voice article does not actually REPORT her using those words.

It simply says there were reports of her using those words.

http://www.donna-tribute.com/articles/80/advocate2.htm

So 30 years of controversy has been based on hearsay. Has anyone who ever heard her used those words come forward?


Updated On: 5/19/12 at 12:01 AM

#70

Donna Summer has died

Fascinating.
Thank you for sharing all of that, Namo.

I'm going to re-read and think about all of your words and the context and perspective you've shared... thank you for the important education.
"Two drifters off to see the world. There's such a lot of world to see. . ."
#71

Donna Summer has died

It was a terrible time. Donna Summer didn't do as well during it as a few heroes did. Heroes are by definition exceptional.

She had an exceptional voice. She appeared on some exceptional records. Those two things brought a lot of pleasure and joy to the world.
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none
#72

Donna Summer has died

Namo and PJ need to get together and write a book about this time period.

Every time you two post, it brings back everything so vividly.


"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>> “I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>> -whatever2
#73

Donna Summer has died

Oh gosh, I dunno. Okay, we'll do it!
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none
#74

Donna Summer has died

Armistead Maupin can write the forward.




I'd buy it.
"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>> “I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>> -whatever2
#75

Donna Summer has died

So would I.

Namo, I really do appreciate you going through this in such detail. I was wrong, it wasn't the Voice I read, but a similar article in Outweek's archives. I'll have to go through them again, but they're something of a nightmare to navigate (all on .pdf files). I understand that you lived in the era. I also thought I was pretty clear that I admitted my biases and am well aware of them and where I was coming from--I don't deny anything you say or think you are making things up or have an agenda, and I apologize that I gave off that impression. While obviously there is simply no way for me to have experienced what that era was like, I have read a lot of memoirs, and novels of the time or about the time, and I think I have some concept. Me throwing in Gloria Gaynor really is neither here nor there, and I realze how it looked--my point (which was a poor one) was that she continues to sing at gay events despite being so open with her feelings and I did find it hypocritical that she hasn't been called out on it more, that said, you're right, it's not relevent to the discussion and has nothing to do with Donna Summer.

I would say that The Wanderer does use elements of New Wave even if it's pretty divorced from its punk roots. I'm sorry that me going on about the musical aspect in your post and not the rest made it seem like I was insensitive to the more important issue. Honestly it was because I didn't really have anything to say or argue with the rest of your post, I thought you did well enough and as you say, I wasn't there.

Meanwhile, I found this kinda amusing (the Hall itself admitting they made a mistake) http://www.billboard.com/news/rock-hall-regrets-donna-summer-snub-1007096352.story#/news/rock-hall-regrets-donna-summer-snub-1007096352.story

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