Gay & Celibate: An Orthodox Rabbis difficult dilema.

[DAME]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:11pm

Oh religion. Why do people let it torment their lives so.

rabbi

Updated On: 2/21/08 at 12:11 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:17pm

There is a great doc on the subject: Trembling Before G-d

A web site: http://www.glbtjews.org

My first date in NYC was with a rabbi who was openly gay at his synagogue.

Christians who pay attention to real intentions of Paul's Letter to the Romans believe that Leviticus was to be abandoned.

But obviously Jews don't share that belief. However, do Jews follow ALL of Leviticus Law? If not, why pick and choose?

[DAME]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:21pm

I liked "Trembling Before God" but it only skimmed the surface.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:26pm

I think Orthodox Jews do follow all the laws, although I'm not 100% sure.

While I certainly feel for people who let words that were written by human beings thousands of years ago dictate what they do with their sex lives, I just don't get why people devote themselves to a club where they clearly aren't wanted.

Even more interesting to me is the fact that Jews don't have the threat of Hell hanging over their heads. It would seem to me it would be a lot less guilt-inducing to have gay sex as an Orthodox Jew than as a born again Christian.

Why not pull a Henry VII and just start your own branch where you can do what you want? Why do people continue to let the evil genie in the sky f*ck with their heads so much?

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:32pm

Yeah, and how many gay Jews do we have in this town? I've had MANY myself--give me a -berg, -man, -stein or -owitz and I'm trembling.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:33pm

I've never had an Orthodox Jew or a Rabbi.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:38pm

I only kissed the rabbi. I was hoping for a second date. I think he just wanted to get laid. Oh vey.

Do orthodox Jews stone their children for talking back? I mean there is a list of ridiculous things in Leviticus.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:41pm

I dunno. I don't know any Orthodox Jews.

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:41pm

I had a 30-something lesbian friend (black, btw) who regularly met with this Orthodox guy (or the "beanie jew" as she called him) and for a fee, she would give him an enema and then let him smell her "down there" while he spanked the monkey.

Just an anecdote!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:46pm

Just as long as she was kosher!

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:48pm

Where's the Levitican law for stoning children to death for talking back? I find mostly dietary and sexual laws, and laws concering sacrifices.

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:48pm

She was actually! Though she did like my pork tenderloin--though who doesn't?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:53pm

wait--which pork tenderloin are you referring to?


There are some crazy things in Leviticus--can't wear fabrics of two or more fibers. Can't touch pigskin (there goes football). Can't sit where a woman has sat during her menstruation cycle.

So many things most anyone would find pointless today.

[DAME]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:53pm

Lil;
I know a lesbian who had a similar arrangement. ( I am not kidding).

Hypocrites. All of them.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 12:59pm

There are some crazy things in Leviticus--can't wear fabrics of two or more fibers. Can't touch pigskin (there goes football). Can't sit where a woman has sat during her menstruation cycle.

But don't Orthodox Jews follow these?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 1:00pm

This is old, but sorta captures the idea:

May 27th, A.D. 2000Feast Day of Saint John Calvin, Priest (1564)

Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. Ihave learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge withasmany people as I can.

When someone tries to defend the homosexuallifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearlystates it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advicefrom you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to bestfollowthem.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates apleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. Theyclaim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price forher?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in herperiod of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, howdo I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are aroundus. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but notCanadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to killhim myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is anabomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have adefect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does myvision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident youcan help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternaland unchanging.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 1:09pm

There are certainly traditions that are followed. And I certainly respect one's religious beliefs. But some of the penalties for defying these tradition is death. And that's a bit extreme.

But that's why this issue has been so confounding. If one believes as I do that we are born gay. That God or god or nothing made us gay, why then is it condemned in a book? Is it truly the will of God? Or is it a corruption of God's beliefs?

And this is all, of course, assuming one even buys into the Jewish or Christian God or God at all.

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 2:17pm

Did she live in Brooklyn DAME? Wouldn't that be a trip if was the same person? Though I HIGHLY doubt it--my girl was PRETTY ROUGH--the only person I've ever been scared of besides my dad.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 3:01pm

Jerbs, I'm not attacking you personally. I don't agree with your religious beliefs but I don't have anything against you as a person. I'm just saying that up front. :)

There are certainly traditions that are followed. And I certainly respect one's religious beliefs. But some of the penalties for defying these tradition is death. And that's a bit extreme.

Indeed, but it's all extreme, isn't it? And we get back to the point we always get back to - people pick and choose what they want as their religious. And that's the part that always stops me. How can you dismiss some of it as nonsense but still expect to be taken seriously for believing other parts of it. Where do people get that all this stuff is mutable, and can be adjusted to fit the times and/or their own world view?


But that's why this issue has been so confounding. If one believes as I do that we are born gay. That God or god or nothing made us gay, why then is it condemned in a book? Is it truly the will of God? Or is it a corruption of God's beliefs?

I think it's that God made you gay to test you. Or maybe to insure He'd have enough priests?

Seriously, though, I can't answer that in theological terms because I don't live my life ruled by the bible. I guess if I were to think in those terms, I think it's that God stacks the deck against everyone. You're born with original sin, you're damned forever if you renounce the Holy Spirit, you've got to do this and that to not piss the Guy off, etc, ad nauseam. Some people He taunts a little more by giving them sexual desires that they are not supposed to validate or act upon.

I just don't understand why people profess a belief in the God of Abraham and don't follow all his laws. The God of Abraham is incompatible with any sort of semblance of living in reality. Why go through the trouble of trying to justify all the stuff that doesn't jibe with one's world view? Why not just pick a different god or invent your own? Essentially that's what people do anyway, but by allowing their belief system to be tied to the God of Abraham they're giving their tacit approval for all the ugliness done in His name.

But, back to the Orthodox rabbis in question, what do they expect? Do they want to eat pork and use electricity on Friday nights, too?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 4:39pm

let me say that the reason these religious discussions have been so complicated (aside from religion being so complicated) is that I am no longer a religious person.

but that doesn't negate my respect for other people's beliefs. and I have included this issue as part of my activism because I believe it aids our fight for equal rights to prove there are many views about the Bible and one of them is indeed gay friendly. I do this also to hopefully help those people who are torn inside and/or suicidal--as many teens are.

anyway, I think it is imperative to realize that the bible is not clearcut. there is no one certain interpretation. that's an added component of faith. and there are lots of questions that come with--is this truly the word of whatever God there is (if there is one)? if so, how much of this has been accurately recorded and translated and interpreted and modernized? why is the bible so contradictory at times? why are some things seemingly literal and some seemingly metaphorical?

obviously, I ended up coming to the conclusion that it's all a bunch og bullhockey. but at one time I was Christian. and I was torn--I knew in my heart that I was born gay. I knew in my heart that God was not going to send me to hell. but everyone was saying one thing.

and then, new opinions became known--mel white's story and the book I reference in my video. and what I read rang so true--that God was not antigay.

anyway, this is a huge conversation-- I can't possibly convey it on a message board. not today at least.

my bottom line is about fighting the hate and allowing people their equality and their right to believe what they want to believe without condemnation. and as a sidenote, I do think freedom of religion ends with actions--no one's religion should trump civil rights.

and if a person decides that they like most of the ideals of a particular religion and not all of it, I think that's ok, too. it's certainly what distinguishes the variations of orthodoxy to liberalism within each denomination.

I know that if I were to return to a Christian belief, I would be concerned with the parts of Jesus' message pertaining to being a better, happier person and being better at treating people with respect and equality. I would be seeing God/Jesus as a guide/friend, not a punisher.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 4:55pm

I see God as The Punisher!

Thanks, Jerby, for your response.

And I'm all for religious freedom, too. I do think people are entitled to believe what they want, regardless of how much damage I think it does. I just think people could be doing a lot more with their lives, I guess.

I just don't get what these gay rabbis mentioned in the article want. They seem to believe that the bible is the immutable word of god, so until the messiah comes and sets it straight, I don't see that they will ever be able to have a gay relationship that their god approves of.

That leads us to another question - Is it really condemnation of gay sex, or is it really a condemnation homosexuality that we dress up these days as just being a condemnation of gay sex. It would seem to me that living with a man of the same sex and having a non-sexual yet still romantic relationship maybe gets them a pass on a technicality, although I would think their God still hates their queerness even if they aren't getting it up the butt. I wonder if they do oral.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 5:11pm

the references as they read now are a condemnation of the act. and only refer to lesbian sex once--thugh some believe it never refers to lesbian sex.

despite a few notable exceptions you might read about, I believe--though I could be absolutely wrong--that same sex couples living a romantic life together was not common/known before the 20th Century. I think most everyone lived a double life, having a lover on the side or only engaging in sex on the dl or at the baths or what have you. thus, it doesn't surprise me that the Bible merely refers to the act. in fact, it would seem most Christians and Jews who are antigay see gayness as a fetish or something anyone is capable of slipping up and doing. just a sex act.

One would think that if God wanted to clearly condemn gays, he would have been clearer and more forward thinking when handing out the do nots.

[AbbaRabbit]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 5:25pm

the whole "gay and celibate" thing brings up something interesting that hits close to home.

i identify as queer.
the reason i identify with a word that could mean many things is beacuse it's a pain in the ass to explain what pan-romantic asexual means.
basically, i have a romantic, physical and/or emotional attraction to people (guys, gals and those inbetween) but not a sexual attraction.
i hope this isn't TMI, but it's doubtful i'll ever have sex. i dont experience that attraction, i never have and i dont think i ever will.
but that doesn't mean i'll never be in a relationship with another girl.

to someone who takes leviticus seriously, am i a sinner? is someone who is attracted to the same sex but does not have sex with them (for whatever reason) still wrong in their eyes?
where is the line drawn between right and wrong in this case?

[Link Larkin Wanabe]

Posted: 2/21/08 at 5:41pm

Everyone interested in this subject should watch the documentary "Trembling Before G-d"...and I highly recommended watching the DVD with the special features, because I find the editing in the actual film makes the Rabbis interviewed look less compassionate than they come off in their extended interviews.

And Jerby, as an observant Orthodox Jew I actually don't wear anything that has wool and linen mixed together in it...although its pretty rare nowadays anyways.

Akiva