Hardcore Oz fans feelings on Wicked- Page 2

[Calvin]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:34am

Too bad they couldn't follow Dorothy to Kansas and do some Phelps-zapping.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:36am

Yeah, best, if the film has to end as it does onstage, it might as well motivate it a bit more, go a bit deeper into her feelings.

I'd still rather see her wind up as a greasy green spot on the floor, though. Looks like I won't be going to the movie.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:41am

"Agreed, Best, those little bits don't help at all. I doubt the film will do much to relieve those issues, as any film would have to be far more crowd-pleasing than the play."


Well, you have a point, Roscoe. If a film version DOES darken up the direction and staging, they risk pissing off the legions of readymade fangirls, who want to see Elphie and her pookie prince going off into the woods for a happily-ever-after, aren't-we-smart-we-sure-fooled-them moment.

And in Hollywood, the risk-takers seldom take actual risks. Especially, since this movie is bound to be HUGELY expensive with a lot of cash riding on it. Hey, at least I'm looking forward to seeing a Lord-of-the-Rings-scale Oz. With today's technology in visual effects, it will surely be an eyeful.

And it's several years away, regardless.

Bottom line: I still like the imagination found in both the novel and the play. Neither one are perfect, but both offer a lot to chew on... if you're willing to do more than just sample it briefly.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:44am

Ooops! Caught, Besty. Sometimes I forget to proof read! It would be awesome if they WERE surrounded by a giant cake, though.

And the dialouge in the play makes it seem like they are going far away.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:47am

Nah, they just went to New Jersey.

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 12:25pm

Besty-
There's the very specific line "We must leave Oz" which suggests that they cross the desert.

Given that Ozma had the rug, and the Shaggy Man made the boat, what's to say that Elphaba didn't just pack a few extras along the way to help them cross?

My big complaint to the ending, is how the hell did Elphaba and Fiyero communicate to set the whole scheme up?

[Roscoe]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 12:27pm

It also turns the Scarecrow into something of a double agent, Oz' answer to Kim Philby.

Updated On: 8/13/08 at 12:27 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 12:34pm

Making the Fiyero the Scarecrow and having Elphaba live also completely contradict the series of books AND the movie. Where Wicked the book really allows itself to fall in line with what we already know about Oz, the stage version disregards many of the known "facts" about the series.

[brandontwin2]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 12:44pm

I liked the book a lot more in the way that it fit into the other novels. Gregory Maguire actually seemed to try to study the earlier books. I've read all of Baum's books and a few of Thompson's and I just thought the the musical didn't quite fit. The whole story about the lion, scarecrow, and tin man was cute for the fan who didn't know the story that was actually written.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 12:51pm

Oh, right. The Tin Man is another change that makes no sense in the show when viewed through the Oz canon.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 12:54pm

The Tin Man's origin story, in the original Baum novel, is particularly ugly, a tale of bloodshed and attempted murder that wouldn't be out of place on THE SOPRANOS, but hey, its a kiddie book so it must be okay!!

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 12:58pm

My big complaint to the ending, is how the hell did Elphaba and Fiyero communicate to set the whole scheme up?

Not to mention the coincidence of Dorothy just happening to run into that specific scarecrow.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 1:10pm

"There's the very specific line "We must leave Oz" which suggests that they cross the desert."

Considering they're heading deep into the woods on stage, I'd say they're lost then.

Yeah, and they shouldn't be saying "To Oz?" in the MGM movie either, since they're already there. And no red shoes, PLEASE. They're silver.

I guess I don't feel like picking all of this to death. I'm a hardcore Oz fan, have been all my life, and I think it works just fine.

Creative changes? Sure, but I'm fine with them. I think they're clever and work well within their own stories.

It's called adaptation.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 1:12pm

Is it woods? I just thought they went through the door that opened.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 1:14pm

Aren't there trees all around them? Or am I thinking of the early poster art that showed them going into the woods?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 1:17pm

I honestly can't remember, but I never got the impression there were woods they were heading into. If I remember correctly, they are dawdling in the castle so Elphaba can sing with Glinda and then they just go out the castle door.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 1:19pm

I thought they just went upstage and had a cigarette.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 1:22pm

Here's some of the early posters I was thinking of...





Which would totally have given away the ending if they had used them!

[Roscoe]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 1:25pm

As I remember, they're pretty vague about where exactly they're going. Onstage they just disappear into the clockface, don't they? And there aren't any big clockfaces in Oz, are there? Oh my GOD, the blasphemy!!

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 1:27pm

Well, the whole point is they're going into hiding and can never show their faces or live their lives openly again... whether they're still in Oz, Ev, Passaic, or the upper berth of a giant clock.

...or offstage right having a smoke.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 1:30pm

They're running off to a more tolerant world, there green women and straw men can live in peace and harmony.

Maybe it's Utah.

Updated On: 8/13/08 at 01:30 PM

[landryjames2]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 1:32pm

Best12--when they say "To Oz" aren't they referring specifically to The Wizard? He is called the Great Oz in the original book, so on and so forth.

The Wizard of Oz was my life growing up, and is still the most important thing materialistically speaking. I am an avid collector and love all things related to Oz especially the MGM 1939 masterpiece.

That being said I enjoyed Wicked very much, and was excited to see (and read) a different take on my most favorite characters in all of literature or entertainment. The way it does not flow with MGM or the books is of little consequence to me as I just take it for what it is.

I however pretty much disdain Return to Oz so I stayed away from the recent Appreciation thread for the movie. Balk was fine, but as Besty said--completely joyless. Unless Besty, I thought the soundtrack was equally joyless. It angers me that many oz fans think that Return is closer to the books than MGM. Laughable. Not in my opinion in either spirit nor plot.

Back to Wicked the Musical--I am more bothered that Elphaba spent her entire life devoted to bringing down The Wizard and establishing a shift in pattern in how Animals are treated but is completely overpowered by Madame Morrible and The Wizard. She fakes her death, and then all of the sudden with one short scene Glinda is powerful enough to exile The Wizard from Oz and imprison Morrible. Pretty ironic that Glinda's plan (although unwittingly)to engulf herself with popularity with the people of Oz and not to cause any ripples when Elphaba did and bide her time, actually is what caused the regime change from the Wizard to Glinda the Good thus restoring peace and prosperity to the land of Oz (in Wicked).

None of this follows MGM or books of course because after The Wizard left, The Scareacrow took over for a while until Ozma became Permanent ruler.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 1:35pm

Thanks for weighing in, landryjames2!

Long time, no see.


And you're right, HE does refer to himself as "Oz, the Great and Terrible" when they arrive in his throne room. But do they know that yet? Glinda tells Dorothy to find the Wizard of Oz. She doesn't call him "Oz" by name. Or even Ozzie.

By the way... Isn't that like saying, "I am America!" How delusional!

Updated On: 8/13/08 at 01:35 PM

[landryjames2]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 3:09pm

Thanks Besty! I knew from the moment I joined these boards that you were a fellow Oz lover (as well as old movie lover) and appreciate you so much for that.

Anyway, I don't have a copy of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz here in the office, but I know they refer to him in the book as The Great Oz as well, so not sure if that is how The Witch of the North (not Glinda) first referred to The Wizard or not in the book. However, in regards to the movie, I don't believe Glinda refers to him as anything other than The Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz (very good, but very mysterious). So I have no Idea how Dorothy and Co. would have known that before they reached the throne room (at least in the movie).

How did Dorothy even know that Munchkinland was even a part of the land of Oz? I have seen the movie a zillion times and sitting here cannot remember if that was made clear to her in the movie although the audience (America) always knew that. Doesn't Glinda just tell Dorothy she is in Munchkinland (and that the Munchkins will safely see her to the border on her way to The Emerald City)? I don't rightly recall.

I know that in one of the Baum's Oz sequels it is stated that all male rulers of Oz pre-Dorothy were known as Oz, and all female rulers were know as Ozma (thus the name of the final ruler of Oz when Ozma was returned).

But then Ozma's father was Pastoria so that doesn't really make sense, and The Wizard's full name as revealed in I think Dorothy and The Wizard In Oz is actually a very long form Oz in which Oz is the abbreviation (Oscar something?).

Then again, Baum was pretty inconsistent always adjusting what the land of Oz was until it pretty much became a utopia.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 3:11pm

A lot of the logic issues in the movie can be explained away by remembering that Oz is just a dream.