Hardcore Oz fans feelings on Wicked

[brandontwin2]

Posted: 8/12/08 at 11:08pm

I was just wondering how other Oz fans feel about Wicked. When I first heard about the show I was super excited but I was let down a little. the hammerheads being displayed as some sort of entertainment was a little odd to me and I felt it lacked some of the research from L Frank Baum's books. The original plans for Glinda's costumes to look like the original on the cover of Glinda of Oz would have fit very nicely in my opinion. Overall, I love Wicked but not in the same category as Oz.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/12/08 at 11:10pm

Is there really such a thing as a hardcore Oz fan?

[winston89]

Posted: 8/12/08 at 11:14pm

I didn't think there was. But, here we are.

[cfmiller]

Posted: 8/12/08 at 11:14pm

As a HUGE Oz fan, I was very disappointed.

I was hoping for some good prison rape scenes.

[Trekkie2]

Posted: 8/12/08 at 11:16pm

I don't think this is fully on-topic, but I immediately thought of Lorna Luft's recent bww interview where she was asked what she thought of Wicked and said this: "I, um, I’m not the best person to ask about that, because I’m incredibly protective of The Wizard of Oz. When they put The Wizard of Oz on stage, they’re doing it with the songs from the movie, I have no problem with it. But when they take it and do something totally different with it, I find myself, um, having big reservations. I wasn’t crazy about The Wiz. Maybe that’s the purist in me. I’m the wrong person to ask."

I found that interesting. It's not surprising, though.

[Biff AKA Levi]

Posted: 8/12/08 at 11:16pm

I was hoping for dark and scary.

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 8/12/08 at 11:46pm

I enjoyed it. I don't think it's the greatest show in the history of ever (That would be Chorus Line), but still good.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 8/12/08 at 11:49pm

LOL@cfmiller!

[Weez]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 5:46am

cfmiller took mine.

[Urban]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 8:25am

I say I am a hardcore fan of the Gregory Maguire book moreso then the L. Frank Baum books (though I think most of the original books are great - don't get me wrong). Well up to maybe "The Emerald City of Oz" - after that it did get a little repetitive.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 9:32am

pissed that neither meloni nor simmons is in it and that there's not more shankings

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 9:47am

I consider myself a hardcore Oz fan, since early childhood.

As such, I'm used to reading adaptations, sequels and prequels based on the original story The Wizard of Oz. There are 40 books in the "official" series, written by a handful of authors.

So I have no problem reading another Oz story with a different spin on it.

Before Wicked, there was "Was." A brilliant (but confusing) modern novel involving a dying man searching for the real Dorothy's house.

My dad sent me Wicked for a gift when it first came out. I have a first edition. I read it before anybody knew what it was.

My opinion has stayed the same: The first couple of chapters are extremely hard to get through. Rough reading, and clunky writing. But once I got past them, I got into the rhythm of it, and the story. I ultimately thought it was a brilliant idea, and a far different book than I was expecting.

But there is also much in it that is unadaptable, either for stage or film. Political and religious backstories. Fascinating stuff on paper, but not much better than watching grass grow in real-time on stage.

When I saw the musical, I approached it as I have all other Oz adaptations: something new. A different story. Despite the changes from the book, I think the musical works as well (if not better) than the novel its based on. I also think Winnie Holzman's book is grossly underrated. She did a fantastic job at weaving together a story that works successfully and entertains (millions of people). And while I think, on surface, the show is geared for tweeners, it goes much deeper than that, if you're looking and listening, and paying attention. I was very emotional after the first time I saw it.

I look forward to a film adaptation, and my hope is that it's a blending of the two. That the script includes a little more (not a lot, though) of the flavor of the novel, while retaining the structure of the musical. They could do a lot with flashbacks and montages that help flesh out the story, and add some missing elements. But even if they just film the stage show, I think it would work as a movie. I'm looking forward to seeing the results with an open mind. Again, as "something new." Not the novel, or the musical... but the film.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 9:49am

Extremely well said, Best. My experience, past and present, is almost identical to yours.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 10:01am

My experience with the Oz books is fairly limited. I read a few of them as a child, and haven't really felt the need to go back and re-visit them.

The movie is another matter. I'm of the generation that saw it on TV growing up (I can still tell you where the commercials used to be placed), and it is just a part of my cultural DNA in a way that few movies are. The more I've seen it, the more I see in it. It really is one of the best acted films of the Golden Age, with the possible exception of Ray Bolger's too stagy Scarecrow. I still laugh out loud at Bert Lahr's Lion, and as far as I'm concerned Margaret Hamilton's Wicked Witch of the West is the greatest villain in movies.

I read WICKED shortly before the musical came out. I thought it was okay, an inspired idea that I wish had come to a better writer. I think that somewhere in the afterlife Angela Carter is furious that it didn't come to her. I do like how uncompromising the novel is. Elphaba's life is one of almost unrelieved misery, and it fits absolutely with what I know of the Wicked Witch.

The musical has very real strengths and very real weaknesses. I can admire a good deal of Winnie Holzman's book, but I can never forget or forgive that ending. I understand why they did it, yes yes yes, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. It is a COP OUT, plain simpler period full bloody stop, the most offensive and egregious insult to my intelligence since Jar Jar Binks, or the notion that Zack Snyder is a visionary.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 10:38am

* * * * SPOILERS* * * * *

(Do I even need to put that on a post in this thread? Oh, well...)




Why is it a cop-out? Because her death is staged? Because the perceived villain actually wins the love of her prince, and they are now given a chance to live together, albeit in exile as misfits?

I think it's a wonderful ending. A vastly different one than the book, sure. But it's far more romantic (not "love-dovey" romantic... but romance-romantic), and I like the idea that she just "quits" the world and wanders off into the woods with her man.

It's a bit sad though. Maybe even more depressing than if she had died. Instead, we know she is alive, somewhere, in hiding. Unable to affect the world with her talent and her passion for justice and fairness. Unable to "fly high" and achieve great things.

As "happy" (or trivial) as you see that ending, I think it's bittersweet at best. And there's much to think about.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 10:47am

It is a cop-out because it gives a happy ending to a character who should not have one. She is the Wicked Witch of the West. She dies. Plain and simple.

Would it be more romantic if a musical version of Romeo and Juliet told from the point of view of Friar Lawrence ended with the knife being fake and the poison being sugar water and the happy couple ran off to in exile in Sicily? Would it be nicer if Desdemona was resuscitated, she and Othello getting a second chance to run off and live in exile somewhere? Or if Lucy revealed that it was just a flesh wound so that she and Sweeney can escape back to Australia to live in exile for ever after, or if Tony whispered to Maria that Chino had missed and he'll meet her at Port Authority to catch a bus to Somewhere? Nope.
It would be silly and bogus, like the ending of the musical version of WICKED.

The revised fate of the Witch adds nothing of substance to the character or the story. Yeah, the "happy" aspect is diluted by Fiyero's being made of straw, and that she can never go back to Oz, and all that. But I don't think it works.

It might be thought-provoking. All it did was appall and annoy me. Others disagree, of course.

Updated On: 8/13/08 at 10:47 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 10:53am

You do realize that Maria lives at the end of West Side Story. Is that a cop-out? She's "Juliet." She dies.

Right?

Same philosophy.

I still don't think Wicked has a "happy" ending. The outcast with all the talent and potential ends up "quitting" the world and goes into hiding forever with her mutated, damaged man.

Sounds like a whole lotta fun to me.

I still see it as tragic. Just like I see it as tragic that Maria lives in WSS.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 10:58am

Yes, Maria/Juliet lives in WSS, which manages to do what WICKED does not: make a change to an important work of literature that doesn't totally blow the point of the character/story.

True, the ending of WICKED the musical isn't entirely a witless "happy ever after." There's a chalky undertaste, if you like. It still pisses me off, though.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:11am

Well, you wouldn't be Roscoe if you weren't pissed off about it to some degree!



And I realize you're not alone with your sentiments here. Many people feel the way you do.

I just ain't one of them!

I think two things "skew" the ending and make it seem a little more "happy" than it really is, and that has to do with the staging and direction...

1) When Elphaba pops out of the floor, she does it with a big flourish, as if to say, "Yay, audience! I'm still alive! See?" And of course it usually gets applause.

Bad idea. Bad staging. Okay, she's alive. Their plan worked, and everyone thinks she's dead. But she's not stupid, either. "Dead" in her case means she can now go into hiding forever. Not exactly something Elphaba would be either proud of or happy about. It's "surprise" enough that she's still alive. They don't need her popping up like a Witch-in-the-Box.

2) When she and her "damaged" prince go off at the end into the woods upstage in silhouette, it's the equivalent of having them walk into the sunset as a romantic couple. It's the typical visual for "happily ever after." Just like we get with Snow White and her prince on horseback, or many other Disney endings. Again, weak, confusing staging. The visual is wrong for what's really happening. Show them escaping into exile together, not "going off into the sunset" together.

I hope they "fix" those for the movie... and you don't even need to change the script to do it.

[zepka102]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:16am

SPOILER (I guess)

Another tragic aspect of the ending is that Glinda and Elphaba made up, but Glinda has to be left in the dark about it all.

[Roscoe]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:16am

Agreed, Best, those little bits don't help at all. I doubt the film will do much to relieve those issues, as any film would have to be far more crowd-pleasing than the play.

I'd love to see Tim Burton do the film of WICKED. I'm sure it will go to another Director Who Shall Not Be Named.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:19am

I agree with Roscoe about the ending being unforgiveable. I'm a big fan of Maguire's book, and I thought the change in the stage version was indeed a copout.

Besides all the other things mentioned, isn't Oz surrounded by a dessert? Where exactly are they going to go?

[madbrian]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:23am

Why would the opinions of fans of an HBO prison series be relevant with respect to a Broadway musical?

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:29am

In a film, you can show a lot more for the ending. Close-ups of their faces.

We need to see Glinda's pain in losing her best friend. In her eyes, it's as if Elphaba commits suicide. She willingly walks into her death. I want to see how hard that is emotionally for Glinda to process. I want to see her struggle with denying and then admitting to their friendship publicly.

We need to see Elphaba have a little Emily-in-Our-Town moment at the end, where she silently says goodbye to her castle and Chistery and especially the Grimmerie. That would represent the potential that she will never realize. I want to see her "quitting the world." I want to see the regret and the "failure" on her face.

The only glimmer of hope is that she has the love of her damaged prince. And yes, I find that very romantic. But I would like to get the sense that they will have a hard life together in exile. It's survival in its lowest form. It's not a heroic or noble action. She has been beaten into submission by her circumstances. She has lost everything she ever fought for.

Everything but Fiyero.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/13/08 at 11:32am

"Besides all the other things mentioned, isn't Oz surrounded by a dessert? Where exactly are they going to go?"

LOL. Yes, it's surrounded by a very large Black Forrest Cake.



They're just escaping into the woods. There are plenty of "woods" in Oz for them to live in hiding.

But you're right, Oz was enchanted and surrounded by the Deadly Desert, the Shifting Sands, etc. The only way to get in is to either fly over it, sail across it, or be transported into it via magic.