I hate to bring war/politics up on the board.....- Page 2

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 1:33pm

Osama is the one who scares the **** out of me. He is articulate, intelligent, and his following is based on choice rather than on his being the official leader of a country (no matter how that leadership was secured). It seems to me that bin Laden is a charismatic leader to his followers, and even has some cachet' among Arab peoples who find him too extreme. Saddam was a brute; a thug who rule by brute force rather than imparting a philosophy. He's a scary, scary man, and we've been focused elsewhere while he's out there doing his thing. Yet, weeks go by with no mention of him in the news. I'd be willing to bet that a random poll across the country would show that at least 50% think that we've gone a long way toward paying back for and protecting against future 9/11's. Al Qaida was no fan of Saddam's, but I'm sure they're more than willing to be pissed off by his capture and upcoming trial. It will be parlayed into a call to arms because the Arab world has been attacked.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 1:37pm

Astute observations. More insightful that much of what the talking heads are saying on tv, with wall-to-wall footage of the Saddam mouth-swabbing and head exam/nit-picking.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 2:35pm

It's a little funny...all this footage of Saddam getting a free dental exam when most Americans can't afford one.

[TheaterBaby]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 3:32pm

American news coverage is a joke. Everything is censored and edited. If you want real news, listen to the BBC. You would be amazed at how sheltered we really are as far as knowing what's going on around us.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 4:40pm

I usually get my news from BBC, but sometimes it's so biased against the US. I get enough US bashing here in my own country. It gets very old very fast. No matter who the president is, he'll be hated and reviled by every country including ours. It doesn't matter who we vote for, we'll just spend the next 4-8 years bashing his every decision. The press has made it an acceptable habit in this country and the other countries have followed suit. If they're not bashing us, then they bash their leaders for supporting us. It's so depressing.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 4:42pm

There is an excellent online news site, Salon, that provides pretty broad coverage. They provided access many months ago to photo coverage of the war in Iraq that wasn't sanitized for our viewing. The pictures made it horrifyingly clear that this isn't a neat and clean war where "civilians" aren't being injured and killed. The US media keeps the realities of warfare fairly abstract. And then when American troops suffer casualties, it feels like it's very one-sided. Even if the people of Iraq are glad to be rid of Saddam, I find it hard to believe that the US has actually won their hearts and minds. We're just a different kind of oppressor...one that is less brutal than the Ba'ath Party, perhaps...but lets be honest, the US cares about Iraq, not because of the people, but because of their oil. They've got it. We want it.
Salon

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 4:56pm

"The press has made it an acceptable habit in this country "

You don't think the US press is extremely kind to President Bush??

[Auggie27]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 5:48pm

I'm with Erik. Have you seen the way Bush is handled in his press conferences? Last spring, just before this debacle began, he only took questions from pre-picked journalists, knowing the question content.

Suffice it to say, I don't think our biggest problem right now is too much criticism of the president, here or abroad.

And tonight, as I was buying my Christmas tree ... there was a conservative talk show on, vitriol spilling loudly toward anyone who disagrees with Bush. This latest coup with S.H. has freshly divided the country; big shock. As Joel Grey says in WICKED, the best way to rally the people is to scapegoat a really good enemy. A year ago, was our big fear-inducing foe Saddam? I don't think so.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 5:55pm

The press is the first to stir up mixed feelings about any politician. They'll spend 30 seconds on one good thing he's accomplished and then next 10 days focusing on a fault. If the topic of Clinton comes up, we think of his affair and trial. With Reagan, it's senility and conservatism. With Nixon, it's Watergate (yes, he screwed up there, but his foreign affairs in China are all but forgotten). The press loves to breed cynism because if everyone was happy, then there would be less to talk about. I'm all for freedom of speech and I know peace is a pipedream, but the cynicism in this country has grown leaps and bounds over the last decade and it's getting a little frightening. It's almost as though no one really wants good news or has anything nice to say any more.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 6:30pm

Wonder if all this talk about it being planned would still be happening if Bubba was in charge. Do not think he (Bubba) had too much international cooperation when he went into Mogadishu. I guess the soldiers there died for a noble cause. As one person interviewed said Bush could find the cure for cancer & AIDS & he would still hate him. When Bubba was in power the "hatred" against him never reached this hysterical & visceral state. See Black Hawk down to see how Presidential power was missued . Why did he get a pass on that ? I wonder. Why when Bush went to Iraq it was a photo op but when Hillary went she was fact finding. The old double standard is alive & well. The Democrats will not win if all they have is screaming at Bush & offer no ideas. Dean ( Mr Flip Flop on the issues) is the Captain of the Titanic & most democrats realize this. Hillary wants Bush to win so she has a clear field for 2008. She is a modern day Lady Mac Beth

[BillFinn]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 6:49pm

I find this all extremely humorous. Some man on the television said somethig to the degree "The trial to come will show an example to all the terrorists what will eventually happen to them." Isn't the US the one who put him power? Weren't we pro-Saddam once upon a time? This all reminds me so much of WICKED.

[TheaterBaby]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 7:16pm

Lady MacBeth or not, if Hillary ran for President in 2008, there's about a 90% chance I would vote for her...unless her oponent was really above and beyond people who have ran in the past. I voted for her for Sentaor and I'm not sorry I did. She is intelligent and strong-willed; and I think she would make an excellent leader.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 7:33pm

To each his own - I could not vote for Hillary under any circumstances but if she does it for you fine.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 7:34pm

Mr. Roxy: "When Bubba was in power the hatred never reached this hysterical and visceral state?"

Oh really? I didn't sleep through those last few years, and he didn't get a "pass" on anything. Read David Brock's insider's book, "Blinded by the Right" for a gentle reminder on the biggest agenda in the country in the 90s: to bring Clinton down. And in case you still think the hatred wasn't "hysterical" -- he was impeached, at a major expense to all of us, literally and figuratively. By the end, his behavior certainly wasn't high on my list, but really, Bush is suffering slings and arrows never directed at the Clintons? I don't think so.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 8:05pm

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Bubba was never called "the enemy" or worse than Saddam or Bin Laden. No ones feelings will be changed so we will agree to disagree. Bubba had Bin Laden on a silver platter & turned down the Sudanese. Imagine Bush doing this

Question: Why won't Dean release his records when he was govenor ?Maybe he does not want it to come out that he cozied up to big insurance companies in his state ( for tax benefits) . Oh, I forgot, only big bad republicans cozy up to big business. As far as Hallibuton, Clinton employed this company as well

2004 will be an interesting year.Until the Democrats start discussing issues instead of their constant ranting & raving at Bush, they are doomed. Even fellow Democrats realize Dean is not mainstream & is leading his party to a electoral disaster

[Auggie27]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 8:55pm

Let's do agree to disagree, Mr. R. Truth be told, I enjoy chatting opposite you so much on various theatrical topics, I'd hate to ruin a lot of stimulating discourse with partisan and/or subjective takes on NON-theatrical history.

'Knew this damned OT section would get me into trouble. I scream night and day that people are too instantly divisive these days -- and then, hypocrite that I am, fall prey to the syndrome at the drop of a hat. Or drop into a spider hole. I need the diversion, so back to Sondheim, Jackman and those pesky Wicked gals.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 9:07pm

First of all...who's Bubba??

Listen...I'm not a huge fan of Clinton either. He made a lot of mistakes. But to say he didn't stir up the frenzy that Bush has is completely INSANE!
Bush has ties to the Bin Laden family, lets the Saudi's get away with anything, has Halburton rebuilding Iraq and no one in the press says ANYTHING! Oh wait! I almost forgot! He's also taken away our right to privacy with The Patriot Act. All that and "Bubba" gets impeached for oral sex! Yes..Clinton did worse things in office than oral sex but Roxy..like you learn on the schoolyard playground...two wrongs do not make a right.
Mister Matt...you make the case that the media spends 30 seconds praising a politician and then 10 days talking about all the bad things they have done. Please tell me when this has happened to President Bush! That must be on a channel or in a newspaper I don't get. I mean...the press could go crazy on anything I mentioned above, not to mention the huge national deficit he's created (who's gonna pay for that!), but when have you heard more than a 10 second blip about it.
Remember after 9/11...when no one could fly anywhere? President Bush decides to fly members of the Bin Laden family (who he's had several business interests with in the past) out of the country without even letting the FBI question them! (If you want more info about that you can PM me). Now can you even imagine what would have happened if Clinton did that? I mean that man got crucified over a real estate deal and improper use of cigars!
But I watched the news today and Saddam has been captured...everything will be OK now. MSNBC told me so.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 9:11pm

roxy, i'm as neo-con as they get and even i will admit that the level of hatred of bill and hill was only slightly less vitriolic than the current hatred of gw. the only reason i say slightly is that it's a lot more popular to hold the kind of extremist views of gw. the kind of animosity and virulent hatred that is common for gw was the kind that only the more fringe members of the christian coalition (like mom) held for bill and hill. what was once the raving of a few well financed loons in the late 90's towards the clintons has become the accepted language and attitude in the new millenium towards gw. but let's not ever say that bill and hill got off easy on any count. they were called murderers, traitors, philanderers, thieves...you name it. everything that's being thrown at gw was thrown at them first. the only difference is the level of acceptability that the accusers have in polite society.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 10:15pm

Re The Patriot Act

Check & you will see that all the whoop te do about it infringing on rights is hot air

I do not think we should be checking 80 year old grandmothers for knitting needles or tall blond swedes. Who committed 9/11 & almost every other terrorist act? Hint, they came from the middle east. If I was from that area I would expect to be profiled & would accept it & not get my nipples in a twist over it.

As far as trampling on rights, it must be comforting to the widows of those killed on 9/11 that all their loved ones rights were intact when they were incinerated when the planes hit. I would rather be alive with some rights alledgedly curtailed than dead with all my rights intact. I think those victims on 9/11 would feel the same way

For over 2 plus years we have not been hit. Guaranteed one of the 9 democratic candidates ( a clueless ex govenor, a racial arsonist, a big city mayor who is totally looney toons to name but a few )gets in & they will undo all the work done so far & we will get hit again. Next time we may not be so lucky

The terrorists have declared war on the US . To put your head in the sand & think otherwise is suicidal. Listening to Dean rant & rave something makes me think of a raving madman . I shudder to think of the consequences if he gets in. Forget that your taxes will go thru the roof but the terrorists will be salivating if he is elected.

End of discussion from my end . If you do not agree that is your prerogative but can we at least not start throwing labels around. Most on this board disagree with me. That is fine. I accept that & deal with it.I disagree with you. I think you are wrong but have a right to say it & vote for whoever you want to. I respect your views but disagree. All I ask is the same in return

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 11:21pm

Well, you may think that's the end of discussion but you actually didn't address any of the draconian moves that are in place because of the Patriot act that actually do nothing to make anybody any safer from terrorists. You say it's a lot of whoop de doo over nothing but then you don't explain why that is? Do you actually have an analysis of this, or is this another case of "Because Roxy says so, that's why?"

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 11:28pm

yeah, you cannot find anyone else on the board that does that...

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 11:32pm

On the other hand, yes you can. On the other, other hand, no you can't. Isn't that what you're always obsessed with, RobbO? The OTHER point of view? And then the OTHER other point of view? And then the OTHER OTHER OTHER point of view? What's your point of view? I mean, it's obvious, you just never come out and say it.

Roxy: "Wonder if all this talk about it being planned would still be happening if Bubba was in charge."

Someone doesn't remember the conservatives like Rush "Addicts Should Be Jailed" Limbaugh CROWING about Clinton's attempt to take out Bin Landen during the Monica era. Or is your selective memory selecting again, Roxy?

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 11:42pm

wow, THAT was easy.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 11:51pm

On the other hand, it was hard. On the other, other hand, it was medium. Just something to think about.

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/15/03 at 11:52pm

VERY easy