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#1

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

Not exactly a surprise, but interesting nonetheless.

Where there's bigotry to be overthrown, Obama won't be there. He'll be too busy meeting with George Clooney, or phoning basketball teams.
Fiercely Advocating Bigotry -- Again
"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." Thomas Pynchon, GRAVITY'S RAINBOW "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick My blog: http://www.roscoewrites.blogspot.com/
#2

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

The only 'apology' I read seems to boil down to the need to get it to the Supreme Court level (as opposed to not appealing, and having it only be effective in the one state.) I'm completely out of my league with this field - is there any validity to that argument? it seems to make sense, but at the same time sounds like so much 'double-speak'.
#3

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

The closer this gets to the Supreme Court, the closer we get to losing all of the advances that have been made so far. Obama's own oft-stated opposition to marriage equality is clearly behind all of this.
"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." Thomas Pynchon, GRAVITY'S RAINBOW "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick My blog: http://www.roscoewrites.blogspot.com/
#4

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

There's validity to a risk of competing rulings across the country creating legal problems, but it does not do much to make this any better for those of us opposed to DOMA.

In Federal Court, a District Court is only bound by the precedent within its hierarchy - so District Courts would look to its Circuit Court of Appeal for precedent. Circuit Courts of Appeal are controlled by the Supreme Court. Often cases are taken by the Supreme Court when there are conflicting rules among the Courts of Appeal. So, you could have courts in the same District have inconsistent opinions until the Court of Appeal clarifies and provides precedent. And with Courts of Appeal, you can have inconsistency until the Supreme Court rules.

The rulings of courts not within your Circuit can be persuasive, but they are not considered precedent.

Here is a general discussion.

Precedent
#5

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

Thanks, YWIW. But as I remember, there is nothing forcing the DOJ to issue this appeal, is there? It isn't written in legislative stone that the DOJ must automatically issue appeals in situations like this, is there?
"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." Thomas Pynchon, GRAVITY'S RAINBOW "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick My blog: http://www.roscoewrites.blogspot.com/
#6

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

No they did not have to automatically appeal Roscoe.

The question was about precedent, and whether the ruling would be binding on any other court - the answer is no, it would not. A court tomorrow could rule to uphold DOMA.

#7

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

So, if it wasn't appealed, it could stand in that district - but it wouldn't bind other districts. If it goes to the Supremes, and they vote no, then that's it thanks for playing.

What comparative value are people mentioning in these two approaches (from a legal standpoint with an eye toward history and precedence)?
#8

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

If the law is upheld, then the law needs to be revisited at the legislative level. Even if the Supreme Court says that it is constitutional (and who the hell knows what this SC will do, but I think there could be a 5/4 ruling holding it unconstitutional), that is not the end of it - it could be taken up by Congress to change it.

Not a real warm and fuzzy feeling, I know. Also, as more states legalize gay marriage, it will be impossible to continue to uphold DOMA even if the SC initially refuses to strike it down.
#9

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

From what you're saying, though, I'm not seeing the purpose in continuing to appeal - based on 'tradition' or any other reason. Why not let it stand? I would think that would provide impetus, if not precedent, for other districts to do the same.
#10

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

Despite the Roberts Court's obvious conservative slant, Justice Kennedy has a pretty consistent record in support of civil rights. I'd say it's likely that he would side with the liberals on cases like this, DADT, and Prop 8.
"It does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg." -- Thomas Jefferson
#11

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

Well, this will probably not satisfy you - but currently, like it or not, DOMA is the law of the land. While many of us objected to Bush's near Imperial Presidency, where he had no respect for the authority of other branches and trampled the rights of both the legislative and the judicial branches, those same people want Obama to disregard the rule of law as enacted by the Congress.

The argument is that the DOJ is obligated to defend all of the laws of the land, not just those it likes. This is the DOJ's mission statement: To enforce the law and defend the interests of the United States according to the law; to ensure public safety against threats foreign and domestic; to provide federal leadership in preventing and controlling crime; to seek just punishment for those guilty of unlawful behavior; and to ensure fair and impartial administration of justice for all Americans.

If you truly believe in separation of powers, then the DOJ should not be making law and not choosing what laws it will defend and which it will not.

Bush used the DOJ to advance a political agenda, and many on the left rightly attacked him for it. The DOJ was generally non-partisan (at least before Bush). Now, you are asking Obama to do the same thing that Bush was criticized for - except it is an agenda that we all agree with.

And MB - that is my thought as well. Kennedy is the crucial vote.


Updated On: 10/12/10 at 08:36 PM

#12

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

YWIW - thanks for the explanations. I guess I put too much emphasis on the fact that they didn't HAVE to appeal.

I need to go and read up on the racial marriage situation. I was under the impression that it got handled judiciously. Is that a completely different scenario because there hadn't been actual legislation put in place?

I do have to admit that one particular phrase jumped out at me from the mission statement you posted:

". . . to ensure fair and impartial administration of justice for all Americans"

I guess that boils down to ensuring the fair application of the law on the books, without having anything to say about the impartiality already inherrent in the law itself.
#13

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

The Department of Justice is not the same as the Judicial Branch. They are two different animals. One is a separate branch of government (the Judicial Branch/Federal Courts) and the other is an extension of the Executive Branch (DOJ), obligated to represent the United States when federal laws are challenged/violated.

There was never a federal law against miscegenation, but I think more than 40 states at one time or another had laws on the books against interracial marriage.

So while Courts were involved in addressing inter-racial marriage, because there was no federal law on the issue, the USDOJ would not be. It was the US Supreme Court that ruled in Loving v. Virgina, and the action was based upon state law.

The DOJ was formed specifically for cases involving the United States and federal laws.

#14

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

Gotcha. I actually did know that about the DOJ, I just didn't take into account the use of the word judicial in both cases. I meant the Judicial branch.

You said something about the Legislature being able to take action if the Supremes rule it unconstitutional. Does that automatically remove it from the book? If not, what's the process? And IF they do, what happens if the Legislature votes to keep it there (if they can) or if they rewrite/write new? Does the legislature trump the judicial?
#15

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

Well...

Presuming you get a more liberal legislature (which is a big presumption right now) they could amend the law, modify the law, or overturn the law completely.

For example with Obama's health care plan, many on the right are campaigning to repeal its provisions - but you need a veto - proof majority to do that if it is something the President opposes as well as enough support to avoid a filibuster.

So, if the Congress wanted to, the could repeal DOMA - but they would need to get at least 60 votes to even get it to the floor of the Senate for a vote (I think, I am not 100% positive on all of the Senate's procedural rules).

That has been the problem with the current Senate. The Dems do not have enough votes to even bring certain things to the floor for a vote. With the Blue Dogs, there is even less certainty that the Dems will all vote together. The Repeal of DADT suffered from this - the Dems had 56 votes to bring the matter to the floor, but the GOP (and 2 Dems from Arkansas) filibustered, prevented it from going forward so there was not even a vote.

To repeal DOMA, you will need at least 60 Senators who will not object to their colleagues actually being able to vote on the issue.
#16

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

YWIW - thanks. Such an . . . 'interesting' situation.

Oh, and thanks for your patience with my ignorance Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling
#17

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

I don't care about the Senate rules. I just want to see him be the "fierce defender" he promised to be.
#19

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

Barack Obama's Open Letter to Gay People During the Election:

=====

I’m running for President to build an America that lives up to our founding promise of equality for all ? a promise that extends to our gay brothers and sisters. It’s wrong to have millions of Americans living as second?class citizens in this nation.

And I ask for your support in this election so that together we can bring about real change for all LGBT Americans.
Equality is a moral imperative. That’s why throughout my career, I have fought to eliminate discrimination against LGBT Americans. In Illinois, I co?sponsored a fully inclusive bill that prohibited discrimination on the basis of both sexual orientation and gender identity, extending protection to the workplace, housing, and places of public accommodation.

In the U.S. Senate, I have co?sponsored bills that would equalize tax treatment for same?sex couples and provide benefits to domestic partners of federal employees. And as President, I will place the weight of my administration behind the enactment of the Matthew Shepard Act to outlaw hate crimes and pass a fully inclusive Employment Non?Discrimination Act to outlaw workplace discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity.

As your President, I will use the bully pulpit to urge states to treat same?sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws. I personally believe that civil unions represent the best way to secure that equal treatment. But I also believe that the federal government should not stand in the way of states that want to decide on their own how best to pursue equality for gay and lesbian couples ?whether that means a domestic partnership, a civil union, or a civil marriage.

I support the complete repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA). Federal law should not discriminate in any way against gay and lesbian couples, which is precisely what DOMA does.

I have also called for us to repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, and I have worked to improve the Uniting American Families Act so we can afford same?sex couples the same rights and obligations as married couples in our immigration system.

The next president must also address the HIV/AIDS epidemic. When it comes to prevention, we do not have to choose between values and science. While abstinence education should be part of any strategy, we also need to use common sense. We should have age?appropriate sex education that includes information about contraception. We should pass the JUSTICE Act to combat infection within our prison population. And we should lift the federal ban on needle exchange, which could dramatically reduce rates of infection among drug users. In addition, local governments can protect public health by distributing contraceptives.

We also need a president who’s willing to confront the stigma ? too often tied to homophobia ? that continues to surround HIV/AIDS. I confronted this stigma directly in a speech to evangelicals at Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church, and will continue to speak out as president.

That is where I stand on the major issues of the day. But having the right positions on the issues is only half the battle. The other half is to win broad support for those positions. And winning broad support will require stepping outside our comfort zone. If we want to repeal DOMA, repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, and implement fully inclusive laws outlawing hate crimes and discrimination in the workplace, we need to bring the message of LGBT equality to skeptical audiences as well as friendly ones ? and that’s what I’ve done throughout my career. I brought this message of inclusiveness to all of America in my keynote address at the 2004 Democratic convention. I talked about the need to fight homophobia when I announced my candidacy for President, and I have been talking about LGBT equality to a number of groups during this campaign ? from local LGBT activists to rural farmers to parishioners at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, where Dr. Martin Luther King once preached.

Just as important, I have been listening to what all Americans have to say. I will never compromise on my commitment to equal rights for all LGBT Americans. But neither will I close my ears to the voices of those who still need to be convinced. That is the work we must do to move forward together. It is difficult. It is challenging. And it is necessary.

Americans are yearning for leadership that can empower us to reach for what we know is possible. I believe that we can achieve the goal of full equality for the millions of LGBT people in this country. To do that, we need leadership that can appeal to the best parts of the human spirit. Join with me, and I will provide that leadership. Together, we will achieve real equality for all Americans, gay and straight alike.
#20

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

PJ, WW, Roscoe, Q - I agree with all of you.

I personally want him to suspend all action under DADT while they look for a permanent solution.

I want him to grow a pair.
#21

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

YWIW - thank you for taking the time to explain all of the legal intricacies involved in the process. This story broke right after the news that the Department of Justice would appeal the judge's ruling on Don't Ask Don't Tell, and I was feeling very downtrodden. Having the legal process explained made me feel, while not exactly happy, much better about the situation.
And no one grew into anything new, we just became the worst of what we were."
#22

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

Obama won't be having a testicular growth spurt any time soon, not this close to the election. The Republicans/Tea Partiers would seize on it.
"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
#23

Obama Admin Appeals DOMA Ruling

Then on November 3, he can suspend the discharges.

I actually understand that the discharges themselves have almost stopped (at least new ones) under DADT (at least per Maddow) so all he would be doing is formalizing what is already happening.


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