Pope Reverses Vatican II- Page 2

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 2:05pm

For centuries, the Tridentine Mass dehumanized Jews and, in doing so, encouraged violence toward them, whether the beating of Christ-killers or large-scale inquisitions, burnings, hangings, deportations, banishments, forced conversions or ghettoization. (I.e., if an entire people is sub-human, no individual of that people deserves the slightest human consideration.)

These are the words in the Tridentine Mass that encourage hatred (my emphasis):

"Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that our God and Lord may remove the veil from their hearts; that they also may acknowledge Our Lord Jesus Christ. Let us pray. Almighty and Eternal God, Who dost not exclude from Thy mercy even the faithless Jews: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of Thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness."

The word "faithless" was from the Latin perfidis and was sometimes translated as "perfidious Jews"--which was even worse.

I am neither perfidious, faithless, blind or in my own darkness. Nor does my heart have a veil over it, thank you very much.

In 1960, Pope John XXIII removed the word "faithless."

In 1965, the prayer was changed to:

"Let us also pray that our God and Lord will look kindly on the Jews, so that they too may acknowledge the Redeemer of all, Jesus Christ our Lord.... Almighty and eternal God, you made the promises to Abraham and his descendants. In your goodness hear the prayers of your Church so that the people whom from of old you made your own may come to the fullness of redemption."

In 1970 it became:

"Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen."

Now this pope wants to go back to dehumanizing me.

Updated On: 7/8/07 at 02:05 PM

[Taryn]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 3:22pm

PalJoey, it's very true that I have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to Catholic (and Anglican) traditionalists, because I had the benefit of growing up in the company of traditionalist clergy who happened to be incredibly intelligent and compassionate. So my natural inclination is to think well of them and believe they share the basic humanity of my parents and their friends and colleagues. While I certainly disagree with a fair share of my parents' beliefs, I at least know that none of them are held out of malice or hatred or anything but an absolute love of their fellow man. I actually heard my father give a sermon on how, in actuality, we as Christians were not as beloved as the Jewish people, who have already been saved through the Covenant and who are the Chosen People. That's the understanding I grew up with.

Of course, even in the array of clergy I know who would be considered traditionalists, I do know of some who don't agree with this decision of the Pope, not because they don't appreciate the beauty of the Tridentine Mass, but because they consider this a step backwards in progress.

[Bluemoon]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 3:25pm

PJ - it is the 1970 version which I grew up learning. Again, it was said on Good Friday and came in the middle of a longer prayer which asks blessings on Jews throughout the world as they concurrently celebrate Passover. I'm searching for a wonderful quote from Church teachings on the Diveine Covenant between the Jews and God which abrogates any concerns regarding the first and greatest love of God for his Chosen People. At one time, years ago, I took on an Evangelical Christian who critized Catholics because we DIDN'T evangelize Jews. Later today (when I'm not painting the living room) I will look for it. Do the previous Tridentine quotes appear in the old liturgy? Sure enough, they do. It's terrible. I'm glad that church leadership eventually grew in wisdom and understand, and changed albeit at a snails pace and a few centuries (ok, many centuries) too late. I'm very sorry. The rite that is being released from restriction is indeed the 1970 Tridentine.

And by the way, my friend, next time I'm in town and we're breaking bread, I have a something to tell you about God. It'll make you smile.

Sue - excellent point on 'being an American'. So true that church leaders in Rome are not elected (are you sure they are in the US? Nevermind). But another important difference is that governemnt is temporal, involving laws of the land, while the other involves faith and religion. I'm not sure how to express this, but I practice my faith - a strong, spiritual bond while I can disagree with and ignore the religion - the set of laws and practices. Where the two coincide is the sacraments. I really do find my faith fed by the sacramental rites of the church (the religion) and I'm a better person for the experience. With this knowledge, I can shake my head when idiots at the top make pronouncement. And, no, his words are not "the word of the Lord". That phrase is only used after someone reads from the scripture.

I must confess (get it - confess?!? OK, it's the paint fumes)that as I read this, I seem terribly inarticulate. Part of this is because I am holding back. There's very personal information regarding my faith which I don't feel comfortable sharing on a public message board. If you are interested, I can take it to PM-land, after I finish another wall.

Posted: 7/8/07 at 3:58pm

I remember praying for the Soviet Union to collapse and return to catholicism. Every Sunday. I think it ran something along the lines of "And may those who live under the iron fist of communism soon be free to return to Jesus' love and live in peace and harmony with the rest of the world. And may all those who have turned their back on God find salvation and redemption..." blah blah blah. I haven't been to mass since Paul was Pope, but I have to say: If you really believe that yours is the only religion don't you wish everyone would convert?

[Luscious]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 4:38pm

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities" --
Voltaire - 1694-1778

Updated On: 7/8/07 at 04:38 PM

[Luscious]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 4:45pm

For the love of Joe Pesci!

Updated On: 7/8/07 at 04:45 PM

[Chita1933]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 5:01pm

Are these Jews considered as coming into the fold by the Catholic church?
Jews for Jesus

[MisterRussell]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 6:12pm

"We don't mix meat and dairy -
We don't eat humble pie.
So sing a miserere
And watch the bastards fry!
O, what a day!"

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 6:21pm

I am also grateful to Bluemoon for her sincere explanation and to Papalovesmambo for his caustic one, and less so to JohnBoy for another of his habitual acts of belittlement of other people's concerns.

Your panties are in a twist over something, on a daily basis. How seriously can your "concerns" be taken? You're a glass-empty sort of person. A tiresome victim.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 6:24pm

On the contrary, my cups runneth over, and I am NEVER a victim!

[jimnysf]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 6:32pm

Keep your rosaries off my ovaries!

[wickedfiyeroofoz]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 11:29pm

I miss Pope JP2... Instead of praying for the conversion of the Jews I suggest we all pray for his return from the dead. I was happy being catholic when he was alive. He seemed like such an amazing good man. Benedict is just creepy. I think I'm going to hell or saying that...

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 11:39pm

Most American priests cannot speak Latin. 99.5% of American Parishes will not be affected by this thread.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/8/07 at 11:51pm

But 100% of Catholics will be affected the tilt of the Church rightward.

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 7/9/07 at 12:02am

The Church could not be turned any further to the right after JPII. Many look to John XXIII!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/9/07 at 10:16am

During JPII, the driving force behind the Church's tilt rightward was the then Cardinal Ratzinger, now the present pope.

Reactionary forces now control the Vatican, and this Tridentine Mass reversal is only one of their victories.

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 7/9/07 at 11:42pm

PJ, I have reflected on this thread and it is the title that bugs me. The current Pope did not undo the progress of JXXIII.

[Kringas]

Posted: 7/10/07 at 12:36am

I've always seen PJ as a glass half full kind of person. I've always seen JohnBoy2 has one of Satan's minions.

I appreciate Bluemoon's words. My own feelings about religion are conflicted and complicated, and a very good part of that comes from the fact I was very devoutly catholic for the first fifteen or so years of my life. I never wanted to be a priest or anything that extreme, but even though I've now not been a catholic longer than I was a catholic, it's something that I know will always be a part of me. For better and for worse, I suppose.

(Edited to fix an html mistake)
It also took me all those years to even get to a point where I could even contemplate another religion again. I don't even know why I feel like I want a religion; most days I'm pretty sure I don't even believe in god. I do know that I would never go back to catholicism (or even christianity for that matter) for it's incomprehensible ability to reform, even though 90% of the still practicing catholics I know have really been practicing their own version of reformation. I was just never able to do it.

Updated On: 7/10/07 at 12:36 AM

[tazber]

Posted: 7/10/07 at 5:54am

Is this the Pope who was involved with Hitler youth when he was younger? I get them all confused.
It would explain a lot.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/10/07 at 8:16am

Yes, Tazber, but his supporters maintain it was mandatory to join Hitler Youth at the time.

He was one of the authors of Vatican II but afterward regretted the "excesses" it led to. That is what he has fought to reverse, and his goals are much the same as Opus Dei. He has also presided over the removal of liberal Jesuit priests from teaching positions all over the world. He has deliberately insulted Buddhism (an "autoerotic" religion), insulted Muslims publicly then apologized less publicly, and now he has reversed the previous popes' reaching out to Jews.

And never, EVER forget: In 1986 Ratzinger issued a letter to Bishops in which he wrote that homosexuality was a ‘tendency’ towards an "intrinsic moral evil." A few years later, in 1992, he rejected the notion of human rights for gays, stressing that their civil liberties could be "legitimately limited." He then said that "Neither the church nor society should be surprised if irrational and violent reactions increase" when gays demand civil rights.

He has never reversed THOSE statements.

Updated On: 7/10/07 at 08:16 AM

[tazber]

Posted: 7/10/07 at 8:20am

That's why I pray at the Church of Alexyss!

[shiksa_goddess]

Posted: 7/10/07 at 8:36am

Oh seriously> Are we really going to bring in the "Hitler youth" argument? It's tired.

[tazber]

Posted: 7/10/07 at 8:46am

Bitch needs to learn about Vagina Power!

[folkyboy]

Posted: 7/10/07 at 10:31am

if it weren't already apparent, after watching the movie "Deliver Us From Evil" i have decided that the Catholic church really is the devil incarnate.

i don't even believe in hell, but if there is one: those bitches are going!

[DG]

Posted: 7/10/07 at 11:30am

Just so there's no misunderstanding, he's also taking this opportunity to remind everyone that anyone who is not Catholic is not a 'true' Christian.
Other Christians not true churches.