Religion and me.....- Page 2

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:31am

Touch, since neither an atheist nor a positivist had posted, I thought maybe I was being considered an atheistic-positivist. Which I once was, but am no longer.

[KelRel]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:32am

I don't think that it is a matter of God "damning" anyone I think that it is a matter of choice. A path has been laid out, a free pass, if only it will be taken.

That being said I feel that other religions serve the same purpose as mine. This is something that I have been coming to terms with for a few years and oddly enough I found the "voice" for these thoughts in a children's book. In The Last Battle by C.S. Lewis, from the Narnia series (yes I am fully aware that they have Christian themes), a young man, who had spent his whole life serving the "rival god" of Aslan, was still allowed to enter the "real" Narnia or Heaven and was able to see the wonderous things around him because he had served his own god faithfully. He had lived his life by what he thought was the right path. Even though his prayers were sent to another "god", they were still sent with the right frame of mind and the right intent so he was accepted as well.

I think that that is one of the main reasons I don't like the term religion, but rather faith. I believe in God, the Father, Jesus, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but I also believe that just because He is God, the father, to me He can still be Allah, or Mother Earth, or The Great Spirit, etc... I think that salvation is based upon faith. Each of us is raised in our own individual way and we may or may not be exposed to the same influences and experiences as others in the world, but because we are not given the opportunity to see it a certain way I do not believe that salvation will be denied to anyone. I think that all it takes is faith in a higher power, the name isn't really that important, its all a matter of what you are comfortable with.

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:33am

There was a strain of postivist thought posted -- at least as I interpretted it. No question for atheists, but there was a question for those who don't limit God to "other" status -- which I understand how that can be seen as an atheist view -- although that is not the thrust of my question.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:38am

My concern is that those seem to be great oversimplifications of the views posted in the thread.
ETA: I just read back, and I stand by what I said, no one's comments fit into either of those categories.

Kel, that is an interesting take. And a very uncommon one amoung most Christians.

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 11:38 AM

[aspiringactress]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:42am

Kel - I agree completely with your statement about God being all of those things.

That is why I never understand people who feel the need to preach to everyone. In my own life, for example, I believe that the God I believe in is the same as the one that other members of my family (with other religious beliefs) believe in. They do not. I think the act of placeing your trust and faith in something is just as important as the thing you place that faith in having any power.

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:42am

Yes, it is a rather uncommon thought amongst Christian people that God would allow more than Christians into Paradise. I agree 100%, but it is a rather unique thought. That's why you gotta love C.S. Lewis.

I'll grant the oversimplification, smart. Words betray us, so I simplify and pray for grace from folks when they read my simplified words.

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 11:42 AM

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:45am

I understand that touch me, and it is perfectly natural and acceptable, it is also true though, especially in converstaions like this that an oversimplification can lose the meaning.

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 12:06pm

I understand that often our beliefs don't fit into any one category. in fact, I'd go so far as to say they usually DON'T fit into one category. But, words are categories, and they're all I've got -- for the good of organization or the ill of confusion.

Speaking of balancing organization and confusion: what do people believe is the purpose and usefulness of some sort of communal worship? Is it useful/not useful?

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 12:09pm

"When I was in high school I had a bad experience with an Presbyterian church and decided that while I didn't really have a problem with Jesus per-say, I was definitely having a problem with a lot of his followers. In this particular church I felt it became more about praising the pastors family than it did about God and that's never a good road."

Patronus, that's very similar to something I experienced.
There's a local pastor who is very much like that. My grandparents used to attend his church and while they were part of the congregation, my grandmother became ill. As her prognosis worsened, she began arranging funeral plans and was adament that this man officiate at her funeral.
One day, just as we had learned that her cancer had spread to her lungs, this man came breezing in fresh from racquetball, still in his tennis whites, all smiles. Later, he was telling my mom about what got him into ministry, and he told the story of his days in the army. As he was sitting in a foxhle, bombs going off everywhere, this thought suddenly occured to him: "What if there's a God?" It was something he'd never thought about before, but now that he might die at any moment, he was going to do some spiritual ass-kissing. And I have a big problem with that. It reminds me of death row inmates who "find God" in a last-ditch effort to save their own skins.
I don't believe a single word that comes out of this man's mouth. You may have heard of him during the Columbine tragedy; Cassie Bernall was a member of the church's youth group. The church's basic opinion was that Cassie was in heaven and married Jesus. I promise you I am not making that up. I'll look for the article and post a link later.

I saw this on a button and I agree with it: "Spiritual people inspire me. Religious people scare me."

[KelRel]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 12:18pm

I think that communal worship has its benifits and its downfalls. The church that I attend now is amazing and it is uplifting. The people are great and accepting. There are people from different races, different sexual orientations, different socioeconomic backgrounds. It is a wonderful blend of people and worship there is a celebration of faith and there is a great sense of open-mindedness. When I go to church is allows me to join in worship with those who are of a like mind and heart.

The church that I grew up in was a completely different story. There was no diversity at all. It was white southerners (There is nothing wrong with white southerners ), who all believed that what the Southern Baptist Convention said was right was law and should be followed to a tee. The preacher and others could not open their hearts and minds to other view points and it was a stiffling experience for me. I great away from my religion at that time (not my faith). I no longer wanted to attend church and for quite a few years did not have a church.

I think it all depends upon finding a place where you feel comfortable, be that at a church, in a small group of friends who have decided to worship together, or at home by yourself.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 12:26pm

The key factor of communal worship for me is what you DO.
Gethering and sharing ideas and experiences, is communal worship and can be very postive.
Sometimes the elements of ritual are also what a given person needs.

The most important factor though is action, when you gather together and support those who are ill in word and deed, feed the homeless, plead for the rights of everyone. Then we are worshiping God.

I think it takes community to truely challenge and inspire us, that our personal relationship with the eternal is important, but also that it needs to be enhanced by community.

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 12:27pm

Here's the article:
http://www.denver-rmn.com/shooting/0427bern5.shtml

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 1:57pm

UGH, I HATE the Southern Baptist Convention. It is like they believe they are their own little government or something telling everyone what to think and do. **spits**

[KelRel]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 2:24pm

I was looked down upon as a child because I liked Disney thanks to the Southern Baptist Convention. Thats right, we are all going to hell because of some cartoons.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 2:32pm

I know right. And I proudly displayed my Disney collection during that time, and my church choir director had a Mickey Mouse watch that she kept on during this whole "Ban Disney" phase.

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 02:32 PM

[KelRel]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 2:35pm

I wore my Winnie the Pooh watch every Sunday.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 2:36pm

Viva La Resistance!

[Burlesquebabe]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 2:37pm

So many religion rants, when will it end?

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 2:39pm

This isn't a "rant" this is a discussion thread.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 2:54pm

I hope I can put this into proper words, and do not offend anyone in the process.

First, I have deep respect for individual faith. People who use their own minds and experiences to judge and evaluate the world around them, read whatever religious texts that bring meaning to their lives and follow that religion are to be respected, and admired. The ability have such deep faith in something you cannot touch or feel is something I have always envied. Religion, in my mind is not a bad thing.

While I have great respect for those of faith, I have a great fear of organized religion, regardless of the denomination, because in many instances, in order to worship you have to abandon your own thought and free will. When individual thought is replaced by the group dynamic I believe that much of what is good and admirable about faith can be distorted and destroyed.

The big issue I have with organized religion, as opposed to faith per se (and I am not legal scholar, so bear with me) is the apparent need to give up free will in many instances in order to be saved. I find free will, and the ability to question and challenge is the greatest give man has, and when abandoned, is an insult to whomever, or whatever created us.

I have been told that the greatest gift to God is to basically abandon free will and follow the teachings of religion X, Y, or Z. That the greatest respect you can show to god is to follow his teachings unconditionally. To me, that makes no sense. From my personal belief, that would be a perversion of one of our greatest gifts, and show a disrespect for to who, or whatever created us. I was given the gift of critical reasoning, to thing, to question, to ask why. I cannot believe I am to abandon this. This belief is inconsistent with many forms of organized religion.

So, I respect greatly those who have faith, who read the bible, the Koran, or whatever text they find provides meaning to them, uses their own critical reasoning skills to discern their truth, and then follow it. If this happens to take place in the context of organized religion, that is fine with me so long as the person continues to think and evaluate on his or her own.

And, I honestly do not think there is one right path via religion. I once told a very devout Baptist who I am friends with that in general, there is one basic story, and that everyone is fighting (at least among the Jews, Christians and Muslims) about how it ends. And, that even if her story is the "right" one, I have to believe that how you live your life, and treat people, counts towards how you are judged in the end, if in fact we are judged. I ended the conversation saying that if she is right, and she will get to where she is going after death first class, but that I firmly believe that I will still get there on standby. The choices you make and the way you lead your life must count for something.

I hope that makes some sense.

[KelRel]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 3:01pm

Youwantitwhen, I agree with you, I think that that whole herd mentality is why I decided that I was more comfortable with my own persronal faith than with the religion I was force fed as a child. God gave us free will and for us not to use it would be awful in my eyes. I think that there are things that we should do to honor God, but out of choice, not out of obligation.

Horrible analogy, but bear with me- Which gift would you prefer: a crappy item from the dollar store or some other low priced retailer from someone because they felt like they had to get you something or a beautifully written card or note from someone who wanted to tell you how much you mean to them, but didn't have the funds or resources to acctually get you something? The heartfelt gift would mean more.

I think that that is the difference between the herd mentality of worship and the indvidualized approach to personal faith.

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 03:01 PM

[Elphaba]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 3:16pm

wow, what a GREAT discussion........I am so amazed by the various posts.

I was basically raised in no faith, we were born Jewish, but as soon as all the grandparents died (in 1957)my parents abandoned the faith and moved us out West far from the rest of the family.
Personally I belive they did this as my dad felt that you could not move up in corporate America if you were Jewish......and in those times, he was probably right.
In high school I attended a Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod) for awhile, and then I tried (I hate to admit this) a Mormon Church...and then I just stopped....
In about 1974 while visiting my Aunt on leave from germany I found out we were Jewish......I thought she was due to conversion, but turns out we were born into it, and my parents forgot to tell us. (I won't even go there, as they have a history of forgetting things........like not telling me about my mothers first mastectomy until the night before......cause they forgot...another story).

I've never felt a need for religion, but perhaps as I get older I am looking for something more. I don't believe we die and go to Hell........that just makes no sense. If anything, I guess I believe that there is a finate number of souls, and we are constantly "recycling" until we reach a stage where we have learned all that we can........
it's a very interesting subject

[Bluemoon]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 3:20pm

And thank you for bringing it up, Elph.

[KelRel]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 3:25pm

Yes, thanks Elphie. It is always nice to get a look into other's perspectives. I am really impressed that this stayed civil and respectful- who knew we had it in us.

[DramaDork925]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 3:46pm

I have a lot of trouble with religion. I used to be a born again Christian and very spiritual. Then my mom got cancer and a lot of other things have happened that led me to wonder who the hell is God and what gives him the right to do what he does to my family and I? Why doesn't he just let me be happy? I'm hoping that I can regain my faith, but now it's just hard for me to acknowledge a God who put me through so much pain.