Religion and me.....

[Elphaba]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:28am

I have never been a fan of religion. I've seen and known of religion doing some pretty awful things both historically, and today. I have never needed nor wanted religion....and frankly have considered it in the past as a crutch
But...I respect religion, as my sister is a christian. I could do nothing but respect what someone I love believes in so wholeheartedly, but truly I question the need for religion.

Especially when I read that the man in Afganistan who converted from Islam to Christianity quickly disappeared after he was let out of prison as the Muslim religious leaders are calling for his death.
True, christianity used to be no different, but apparently has moved past that, although I get the idea that most major religions wouldn't mind if gay people were gone......So I have to ask.
Why do you believe in what you do, and what purpose does it serve you? And why could you not get the same thing from friends and family?
I ask that no one attack what anyone says, as if this turns into that I'll ask Craig to take the thread down.
I am very interested in why people believe what they believe.
I, for instance, believe in the power of man, and I truly believe that we have the power to change things, and take credit for it ourselves. I believe there is a human conciousness that dictates things, I believe we know, inherently, the difference between good and evil, and we have free will to exercise whichever we want.

Again....if this turns into attack the christians, I will ask Craig to take down the thread....

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 10:28 AM

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:35am

I am a Christian. It serves me in a number of ways: mostly by offering me guidance and hope.

I throw away the dogma and other crap that power-hungry "Christians" put into it, and am left with the simple idea that humanity can't save itself, and we need someone bigger and better to rescue us from all of it. That sort of helps me in a way that family and friends doesn't. mainly because family and friends don't control the universe in the way I believe God does.

And I don't believe it because I can prove it (although I do think it is the most logical belief system to assume), but I believe it because I chose it and it works for me. And I've experienced it in weird metaphysical ways, too. All that adds up to a useful belief system for me.

It all turns into a battle over whether you talk about the power of the mind, or the power of God, or the power of good will, etc. And that turns into a linguistic puzzle game. And that turns into people asserting things without having proof. I just know my system makes more sense to me than any other -- logically, experiencially, and systematically.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:36am

**applauds**

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:37am

I am finding that life is a constant spiritual journey for me. That isn't to say that I am diving head first and constantly looking for something to put my faith in, but it pops up ever so often.

I was raised a Southern Baptist and my family believes in the typical Jesus Christ protestant teachings. They aren't particularly "churchy" but my grandfather was a deacon of our church and I was raised believing that. I accepted it because it was just so normal in the rural south. I hadn't really had an exposure with any other type of religion so it just seemed right to me.

When I was in high school I had a bad experience with an Presbyterian church and decided that while I didn't really have a problem with Jesus per-say, I was definitely having a problem with a lot of his followers. In this particular church I felt it became more about praising the pastors family than it did about God and that's never a good road. They also were quite snippy when I questioned anything that their Sunday school teachers (who were about 3 years older than me) deemed fact. That type of environment didn't work for me so I left.

Over the years I have gotten older I've continued searching and tend to move farther and farther away from the "Jesus" based religions. I've studied Wicca very loosely but at the time wasn't detached enough from the "Jesus Truth" to really look at it more open minded. I plan to go back to that soon. Lately, I've been studying Zen and trying to apply some of the more basic principles into my life. While I am far from ready to declare myself a Buddhist, I must say that at the early stage of educating myself Zen Buddhism makes more sense right out of the box than any other religion.

In general though, it's a slow journey for me and trying to balance that delicate plate of "forget what you were raised to believe is an absolute truth" and "stay open minded to new things" is a challenge to say the least.

I really couldn't tell you what it is I am looking for, but only that I hope I realize it when I find it. If that makes any sense whatsoever.

I am not sure if this is what you were going for Scott, but I thought I'd contribute.



Updated On: 3/28/06 at 10:37 AM

[Elphaba]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:44am

patronus, that was excellent....and I can relate. I am one of those people who "somewhat" believe in the power of crystal healing, chakras, etc.......not as much as I used to, but still to some extent.....I still feel the earth has powers that we do not understand. I believe native american cultures understood this, and still do today......but somehow we are not getting it...

touchme, your answer was amazing, thank you!

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:45am

Well, same as Patronus, I have been raised Southern Baptist all of my life and used to be really into going to every church funtion, every retreat, every mission project, etc. Then I grew up and realized that churches and A LOT of Christians are following now what Jesus says, but what they have heard from other Christians and whatnot. Also, many Christians like to point fingers at everyone else stating how evil they are and they are going to hell for this, that, and the other (being gay is on the top of the list), while they too sin and a lot of Christians are divorced (which is in the same paragraph of the list of damnation as being gay) but because it pertains to them, they overlook that. Also, I have not gone to church in so long and people keep telling me that I am a bad Christian for not doing so, but I just can not stand the polictics and hypocricy of churches. But, I love Jesus and God and no matter what anyone says or does, it will not change that.

So, what am I saying? Am I a Christian? YES!. Do I believe that people have the right to believe in what they want to believe? YES!. Am I going to be telling people that what they are doing will send them straight to hell? A Resounding NO!.

Christians, including myself, need to get back to doing what Jesus himself talked about and preached, and not what we hear from the 700 Club (BLAH!) and other places like that.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:46am

I am a Universalist in the most basic sense, I think that there is knowledge, power, and truth to be gained from the belief and study of religion. For many people I think this is contained within their own tradition, but for me it is simply in the principles with which we interact with one another.

There are those within all religions who do and say terrible things, who use the faith for evil rather than good. Yet there are also those with determined desire for the truth they experience of God. To me it only makes sense to encourage people to find that which brings us closer to the joy of community, of peace, and understanding.

I was a Christian, then and atheist, then a Christian again. Now I am something of a Buddhist-Jesusian-Universalist-Unitarian. I still believe that Jesus was a wonderful figure, one with salvific qualities infact, but that he is "a chirst" not "the christ."

I also believe that God is abstract, an outpouring of emotional good that flows within existence and outside of it. Which is why we are closest to God when we are in loving relationships with each other.

ETA: Like DJ and Stephen I was raised a Southern Baptist. Hmm. Paterns.

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 10:46 AM

[KelRel]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:48am

I am a Christian, I believe that Jesus was sent to Earth, by God, to die for my sins. He lived a perfect life and was made to suffer, be ridiculed and crucified so that I could get into Heaven when I die. This was done because no one on Earth is perfect or worthy of entering Heaven and standing before God. Nothing that we can do can make ourselves worthy or "good enough" in God's eyes. Jesus' sacrifice forgave our sins. Because of that I will, if I believe and accept that Jesus is my savior and that he did die for my sins, go to Heaven when I die.

I believe in my faith because it allows me to be able to not be so hard on myself. I am not perfect, God knows that, yet still He will accept me with open arms. Jesus died to forgive all of our sins, He wasn't being picky about it and saying ok I'm just dying for these people, but those will be damned for all time. That is why I feel that people who go around "damning" people for their lifestyles need to take a closer look at their own faith. In God's eyes a sin is a sin. So murder is equivilent to stealing a piece of gum from the store. If you believe in Christ and accept Him as your savior then you are forgiven. Even if homosexuality were a sin (I am NOT saying that it is!), then that sin would be equivilent to the sin that occurs when you tell a lie or are jealous of someone else. No one has the right to get on a soapbox and judge anyone else. "Judge not, lest ye be judged". No one is free from sin so no one should go around telling others that their lifestyle is right or wrong. At least that is how I see it. My faith is a comfort to me because it helps me to deal with the loss of loved ones, uncertainty of the future, daily struggles, and any other problems that I may be going through. I truly believe that God listens to and answers prayers, sometimes the answer is no, and people often equate that with not being answered at all. I call my faith "my faith" because I do not like the term religion. It seems cold and unpersonal to me. My faith is something that I have come to terms with myself and have decided how I will believe and how I will worship. It is a personal relationship and experience and I do not want or need someone else telling me what to believe.

I respect other faiths and beliefs. God gave people free will and with that comes the oppertunity to choose your own path and belief system.

ETA- I was raised Southern Baptist as well, but that upbringing turned me away from the church experience for quite a while.

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 10:48 AM

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:49am

Just to add, I couldn't fully accept any religion who had any sort of intolerance for any group of people.

The idea of a God that wouldn't want or "save" people because of race, sexual orientation or other non-controllable or non-choosable factors is a God that I am quite sure I don't have the desire to serve.
Updated On: 3/28/06 at 10:49 AM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:53am

great, i have to follow those two? crap, i should totally just make a joke.

i hold to the teachings of catholicism/ it's what i was raised with and it's what still appeals to me. i have lotsa porblems with the people who claim to be catholic and i have some problems with the church itself, but then what family doens't have its ups and downs? i never try to trouble myself with questions of which faith is the true faith, who's going to heaven, who'll burn for all eternity (oh yeah, baby, i totally buy into the idea of hell, and despite what the church says, i'm betting there's still a purgatory but i go back and forth on limbo). after all, god will decide that, right? it's not my place to judge.

i know that the comfort of prayer helps me make it through the day and is a way of steeling myself to the ugliness that life sometimes throws at me. the familiar repetitions sooth away my fears and leave me if not contented, at least sated. this faith speaks to me through its ritual and stories. it's what i chose.

totally shoulda just made a joke...

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:55am

Kel, I fully respect your faith for you. I will say though that many of the reasons stated there are precisely why Christianity does not work for me. Instead of being a comfort that system brings me a great deal of pain.

As I said before though, as long as you are nuturing and keeping loving relationships, which I do believe is great part of you and your faith personally, it is marvelous.

papa, I think your answers was well thought out as well. Although, I would still like to hear the joke.

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 10:55 AM

[aspiringactress]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:56am

I am Jewish. I attended a Jewish school for 10 years. That was too clausterphobic for me, as I felt like there was Judaism be thrust at me all the time. Judaism makes sense for me bevause most of the Jewish laws are designed to make you a good person. I don't observe every Jewish law, but have studied the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew and English, and have determined for myself which lawsare not meant to be followed in this day and age. My synagogue is a wonderful place, with a wonderful sense of community. There are some things about it that I cannot forgive (they wouldn't marry my interfaith parents), but I reconcile thisby considering all that Judaism has given me. It gives me a strong belief system. That has been invaluble to me (especially with an extended family that includes some extremely religious people who like to preach to me about how I'm going to hell)

[aspiringactress]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:56am

double

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 10:56 AM

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:59am

Okay...I've got a number of questions for people:

My question for the Christians is this: is it helpful to view ourselves as "always sinful"? What role is there in seeing ourselves in a good light?

My question for positivists: if life is experience, what do you do when experiences contradict one another?

My question for those who don't mystify power in another being: what purpose does it serve to constantly see yourself as powerful creator? when do you know you should change? what "wrong" can someone do? why is it wrong? is it just a libertarian world view?

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:03am

Hmmmm . . . good question.

CHRISTIAN: I don't like to see ourselves (the human race) as all sinful, but at the same time I don't like to see us as all good. We have faults and we are far from being perfect, but that is ok. That is human nature to not be perfect. But, we should strive to be the best Christian, Budist, Aethiest, etc. that we can be and try not to be judgemental or hostile towards others.

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 11:03 AM

[KelRel]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:04am

I don't look at myself as always sinful, I acknowledge that I am not perfect and that that is ok because of Jesus' sacrifice. I then look at my life as something precious because someone died for me, and I try to live my life in the most positive way that I can. I try to be nice to people, the whole love thy neighbor thing. It's not always easy, but I at least try. I try to be honest, to be hard working, and to be a good person. I learn from those around me and don't shut out people because of their different beliefs.In the few people who have posted in this thread so far there are many varying beliefs, yet I can honestly say that I have learned from and become a better person by knowing each of you.

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 11:04 AM

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:04am

I don't fit into any of those categories touch.
I think it far more complex than that. (And far more complex than what I have already stated here.) Yet also much simpler.

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:05am

Which is of course very Zen, Clay.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:07am

Awww, Kel **BIG HUGS**

Yes! A religious belief is just someone's opinion that they feel is right for their life, but we are all different people, coming from all different backgrounds. And like Kel said, I am glad that I have gotten to know all of you and trust me, you guys and gals have changed some opinions that I have had about different things.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:12am

Another moving and important thing, is none of these faith talks are static. It is a "walk" a journey.
We take what we learn and what we know and are moved. We change and our belifs change.

I, like Kel and DJ, have learned much from people of all faiths, and all the different people in this thread. I am neither presumptuous nor naive enough to think I have defined God.

We move forward,hopefully, toward the best fulfillment of our needs in faith we can find.

[robbiej]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:14am

I am not a Christian.

Why do I feel that this is a controversial statement?

I was raised Catholic and quickly learned that it held nothing for me.

As I got older, I decided to take a look at other religions, realizing that, in many ways, there's a whole lot of the same.

I like the Jesus story. But I interpret it so differently from others here. I don't think Jesus died for my sins. I don't think there's a God the Father who watches over us like we're wayward children. If there is a higher power that created the universe, I can't imagine that we can define it in such limited human terms.

I don't think Jesus came along to suffer in a terrible way just so we'd feel we owed him something. I believe the parable of Jesus is used to show us what life is...or can be. We are responsible to each other. We must treat each other as we wish to be treated. And no matter if you are the son of God or the son of a carpenter...or homeless or rich beyond all measure, we all have one thing in common. Our journeys all lead to death...which is neither glamorous nor beautiful. It's terrifying and lonely, as the story of the Crucifixion tells us. And in that last moment, we can chose to make a leap of faith, surrendering this existence to another. Perhaps that existence is nothing...or perhaps it is wonderful.

Jesus died to show us how we are all the same. We are all divine in some ways. We are all poor in other ways. This is what I find empowering about this story.

[Pippin]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:15am

elphaba, your first thought about the afghanistan brought this up to me. on Friday I watched a great episode of Real time with Bill Maher" on HBO, and one of the panelists was Reza Aslan, and this is what he had to say about religion and how it is turned around and twisted into what it is today.

"You know, we have this idea, somehow, that prophets invent religions, that Jesus invented Christianity, or that Muhammad invented Islam. Nothing could be further from the truth. What prophets do is they take the social and cultural and economic and political milieu in which they live, and they reshape it. They recast it. They don't talk about the future. They talk about the present. It's the prophet-followers who then take those words-take those deeds, and turn it into what we call a religion. And it's often the case that it has far more to do with their own ideas, their own biases, than it does with what the prophet said or did." – Reza Aslan

I agree %100 percent with this. I used to be a very gung-ho christian, but I have always been a person to ask "why" and not just accept things blindly. so after years of struggle, and questions, and searching. I discoverd that I am a religious person, but I do not like religion. I just got fed up with all the hypocracy of all my surrounding christian friends, (I had a really bad experience with how the church treated my mother when she seperated from her second husband) and I really couldn't get ahold of all the confusing contradictions in the Bible, and I really got tired of the whole self-guilt thing.

so as it is today, I am privately spiritual, which is just fine with me. I pray, praise, and do not go to church, and I am a lot happier with myself and my situation that I was ten years ago always trying to "behave" and please God, and always feeling guilty


Reza Aslan on religion

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:18am

Robbiej, that is actually exactly the way I interpret that story.

And there is even an entire branch of Christian Theology based on that particular theory of Atonement. The other one mentioned here, the "subsitution" theory is moving farther and farther from the mainstream. It is nearly to the place of the "ransom" theory.

Pippin, that is another marvelous and fascinating vision. And one based greatly in truth for many.

Updated On: 3/28/06 at 11:18 AM

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:24am

smart, my questions weren't intended to be a catch all for every type of belief system. It's that those three somehow have always had little holes in them that don't get answered enough.

Follow up for KelRel and spider:

If you are "worthy" because someone died for you, doesn't that make others "not worthy" if they don't see that? And if we are worthy regardless of wether we see it or not, then is the power of the cross universally salvic? Why would God damn people who don't see their worth?

[Bluemoon]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:26am

First, Elph, thanks for this thread. It's both fascinating and thoughtful. I love reading the responses from so many people I admire. Important questions to raise and ponder......

Like Kel, I prefer to speak of my faith rather than my religion. My faith is my personal experience of God, my religion is the practice and tenets that help me live that faith. For the record I'm a practicing Catholic. It's the religion I was raised in, walked away from and returned to. I can disagree with much in the church, but I look at it like a big, sometimes crazy family. I can shake my head and say,"You all are a piece of work!" and still not leave the family (I can do that with this country as well). But I stay because the church offers me the sacramental life I find essential to my life. I find joy in the Eucharist, plain and simple. I find God in the readings and community at the Mass. It makes me a better person - more open, loving, responsive and joyous. It feeds my intellect and my heart. Kind of a selfish reason, I guess -'this is what I get'. I think different souls are called to different expressions of faith.

I should also mention that I have had some powerful personal experiences - I think touchme called it metaphysical - which, while not being the basis for my choice in beliefs, has reinforced my faith and transcended many difficulties I may have had with the religion. These experiences are gifts of grace and I don't take them for granted.