'Religion' in our lives.

[Q]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 2:30am

For those offended, please pardon the following rant.

WHEN are we going to get away from these mythological constructs being what drives our collective lives?!?

The Age of Technology cannot be considered ‘new’ at this point, and its affect on world communication can NOT be denied! And that goes hand-in-hand with our increased awareness through scientific discovery.

WHY is so much of what is happening in the world filtered through this reductive ideology – no matter WHICH ‘stripe’, so to speak?

There can’t be any more information made available that points to the fact that ALL of these ‘ideologies’ are simply fantasy - the ‘made up worlds’ of long lost isolated societies – by MEN, who were simply taking advantage of communal fears to control and legislate to their advantage. They simply shouldn’t exist any longer.

Even if you buy into the thought that ‘God’ made man in some superior image, then it SHOULD follow that what man discovers with that intellect COUNTS! I’m so SICK of hearing the same Medieval arguments being thrown around as if they have any validity! If we have the capacity to learn and grow, WHAT does it matter if we DON’T?!?!?

[tazber]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 2:41am

Maybe it's b/c it's 2:40 am, but I have no idea what you are trying to say.
If I'm reading correctly, I think you need to consider the intangibles like belief and faith in your discussion.

Not that I have either, but the need for them is part of man's makeup. To have a purpose for our short time on this planet.
That need overrides scientific proof and common sense all the time.

[Q]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 2:55am

"the need for them is part of man's makeup."

The only thing I can think to say, Taz, is WHY isn't that 'need' fed by discovery???

We continute daily to understand more and more about who and what we are within the construct of what we can identify.

And yet, I have to read about 'Creationist Museums' - which fly COMPLETELY in the face of what we can identify and KNOW.

Believe me, I GET the urge to try to have an understanding of what we don't get - but I CAN'T understand the reluctance to accept that which IS. That which we've identified.

And that which invalidates the insecure fantasies of those who only want to take advantage of - and profit from - that fear and anxiety.

[tazber]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 3:13am

I agree 100% with you on that point. Discovery has proven that creatiosnism in just flat out silly. But even so, people will then want to know who or what created the first life form. No matter how far discovery goes, there is always farther that it can't go.
I'm not a sociologist, but I do believe that there is a need to "explain" our being here. It's natural human curiosity. And when empirical answers fail we turn to faith in a higher power.

Having said that, I should disclose for the sake of argument that while I do believe in a higher power, I have no respect for any of the worldy religions. I concur that they are nothing more but social constructs designed on fear and the need for power.

[Q]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 3:25am

I always end up in a place of 'know what we know now', and 'hope to learn more as we progess'.

What I CAN'T accept is 'know what we know now, and judge in the meantime'. Which is what I seem to be surrounded by - and I have lost ALL patience for it.

[LePetiteFromage]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 3:25am

Updated On: 1/12/09 at 03:25 AM

[Q]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 3:34am

"that if you believe, pray and turn your life over to this higher being, good things will happen."

But that ISN'T what happens, as can be shown over and OVER again!

The 'choas' of nature provides every bit of evidence necessary to the discriminatory mind. Those that won't accept or acknowledge seem to me to be 'burying their heads in the sand'.

[LePetiteFromage]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 3:44am

Updated On: 1/12/09 at 03:44 AM

[tazber]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 3:45am

But that ISN'T what happens, as can be shown over and OVER again!

But it has also be proven to be true over and over. Whether by coincidence or divine intervention, people attribute good things to the power of prayer.

In the end, what we have here is the old science vs. religion debate.

[Q]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:04am

"In the end, what we have here is the old science vs. religion debate."

Yes.

And falling SQUARELY in the 'science' category, I am tired of having the 'religion' mentality determine how it is that we live our lives!

[tazber]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:17am

Are you referring to something spcifically? B/c I don't let religion dictate anything to me. I do what I believe in and try to be an honest and compassionate person.
Do you mean the gay marriage issue?
Pepole will always judge you. Who cares? I judge them. We all judge based on our frames of reference.

I sense your frustration, but I feel like there is something specific here that's bothering you.

[Q]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:26am

You might be onto something, Taz.

I live in an established, 'middle class' neighborhood - established for many years. And we were amongst the first to settle here.

So here we come with this California initiative (Prop , and I now have to drive past NUMEROUS signs exhorting people to vote 'yes'.

Is that coloring my perspective? Yes.

Do I understand the parameters I accept by living in this area? Yes.

BUT, it's doing nothing but exacerbating that which I already feel!

[tazber]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:38am

Well, that makes a lot of sense. If I had to see all those signs it would make me very defensive. But I firmly believe that there's no turning back progress. It comes slow, but it comes.
Maybe not in this generation, but one day (sooner than later) gay marriage will be legal.
It will be a fight, but it's on the horizon. Just keep remembering that.

[Q]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:45am

I have a firm grasp on the evolution of 'history' - and I do believe we are moving 'forward'.

BUT, I'm living my life NOW - and the 'history' is taking a little too long to unfold!

I'm just tired of the nonsense of having the foundational principles of this country overridden by religion.

Which brings us back to, WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL BUYING INTO THIS STUFF?!?!?

And if the only answer is, "Well, we believe it," then I have nothing to say - to them or on the topic.

[tazber]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:57am

Q, you know people are afraid of what's different. The anti-gay marriage people are scared of it. Scared of the norm that they're used to changing. They're just using religion as an excuse.

This is not a defense of organized religion, it's just calling a spade a spade. This is about fear. Not god.

[nygrl232]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 5:19am

Why do humans still cling to the big invisible friend(s) in the sky who dwell in the big Hall of Justice? Bunch of reasons. It's ego. People get off on it, thinking they know something, or can manipulate others with it. People are also often taught about their religion as children, so it's hard to let go as it's a unifying force and family tradition, that is when people are actually positive about it. Men love making god a man and hence men god. It's control, as you said. Religion taps into so many flaws and points of vulnerability that many people continue to be caught up in its often manipulative net. Religion can be a weapon, or a wonderful part of someone's life, depending on how it's taught, or how someone looks at it and represents it to others. Bad and good reasons all mixed together.

Why continue to use it negatively and try to shame people? Because there are pundits who know they can get their way by manipulation. It's hard to go door to door to convince people to vote for you, or give you money or power or credence for that matter. Easier to make 'em fearful. Where there's fear, bullying, etc., there's generally also greed, ego, entitlement, hypocrites and also fear as well.

Fear, fear, fear. That's all it is and ever has been. Religion can offer either comfort/strength, or it can make it all worse. The latter's been the motif of our time. It's stupid and a lesson people are going to keep having to learn until they get that they're being used and steered for someone else's selfish purposes.

[Weez]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 6:47am

Mr Dawkins! I had no idea you were a theatre fan! ^_^

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 8:03am

I think there are two groups of religious people.

The first, which make up probably the majority of people despite what those of us with brains would hope, are too stupid to think for themselves. Plain and simple, "Religion is the opiate of the masses." Religion is easy and comforting, and therefore something to cling to. It also, sadly, puts you in the majority to believe in religion, and the more you believe, the more you can feel accepted. If the world were a high school, as it is now, the religious people would be the "cool" kids - they're so many of them, and they all act as one.

The second group, which is far more tolerable, are those who hold on to their beliefs but keep it to themselves. They realize that science exists and they even believe in science, but a part of them wants to cling to that hope that there's something more, and so they continue in their practices. I have no problems with this group - I don't necessarily AGREE with it, but at least it's understandable to me as these people DO tend to think.

I've noticed that ALL of the intelligent people I've known in my life fall into either the second category or question religion completely. Unfortunately, as time has proven over and over again, the majority of people just aren't that smart.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 8:15am

speaking as a proud catholic republican, i'm just in it for the smiting.

look, i love my warped view of religion as it pertains to my own life and i think everyone should be entitled to theirs as long as they are not hurting themselves or anybody else. i feel religion has no place in public policy and should not be used to determine legislation. i also feel that the red sox as an entity ought to be wiped from the pages of history, but somehow i don't see that happeneing either.

i'm sorry that humanity is not evolving as fast as you'd like, q. it's a slow process and trying to force it has generally had disastrous results.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 9:37am

Except for the fact that the Bible always proves how stupid mankind is when they try to act without God.

For example, back in the day when "scientists" were saying the Earth was flat, the Bible said that the Earth was round. When mankind finally figured out how to sail around the world, and got up the courage to do it, and found the Earth was round, God said "Duh, I already told you that in the Bible."

Back in the day when doctors were bleeding people because they thought that bleeding them would heal them, the Bible said "Life is in the blood". Finally someone figured out that letting someone bleed would only kill them and God said, "Duh, I already told you that in the Bible."

I could go on with example after example of scientists finally discovering what the Bible already said.

[madbrian]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 9:48am

There are actually plenty of people who believe in faith AND science, and believe that the two can coexist, and even flourish. I, however, am not a person of faith, although I do consider myself a person of morals. I am of the opinion that while faith does help many people, and is responsible for much good, history shows us that far more harm than good has been done in the name of religion. This is especially disturbing since the basic tenets of most religions are so similar.

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 9:51am

Fascinating thread-I love reading intelligent thoughts without snark.

As to the topic-I'm also in the non-religious camp. But I've known and still know highly intelligent and educated people who do believe and live their lives according to their religion.

My own cousin who is one of the brightest people I know, was unfulfilled by Judaism. He became a fervent Lutheran and teaches Sunday school. I found that the simple answer to my questions about people like my cousin is that they need a "crutch" so to speak-something to have faith in that will get them through rough times in life.

I spend a good deal of time wondering how "it all began" and I'm constantly engaging others in the conversation. I started a thread about it years ago. There is no answer. That was the common consensus. We'll never know. I was fixated on the premise that the human mind just can't imagine "nothing." "Nothing" is what had to be here before anything else was. Before sky, planets, etc. I myself can't imagine nothing. When my mind tries to do it, I automatically think of sky, outer space, heavens.

I wonder if anyone can imagine what was before the sky-in other words, "nothing."

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 9:57am

"history shows us that far more harm than good has been done in the name of religion."

Because we all know that Communist Russia, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc were all religion based. The problems in Darfur, yup it's religion.

Perhaps you should rethink your statement and conclude that the absence of religion caused all these problems.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 10:01am

Three of the people in my close circle are scientists and also very committed to their particular churches and faith beliefs. Two are them are scientists by profession, and one as a hobby. But again, they are three of the most faith-based people I know.

None of the three have any issue with homosexuality. It's good to see people as individuals and not generalizations, I mean, after all, isn't that exactly what you're asking them to do?

[madbrian]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 10:03am

No, the problems to which you refer were caused by the absence of morals, not the absence of religion. Religion has been the cause of countless wars and discord for centuries, going back to the crusades and the inquisition, continuing even today throughout the world.

Updated On: 10/14/08 at 10:03 AM