'Religion' in our lives.- Page 5

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 5:56pm

Besty, are you ignoring me and my all encompassing answers, lol?


"therefore it is purely a belief of faith that there is no God."

except to an agnostic, who isn't sure if there is or isn't. And who needs some proof to believe that there is.

[tazber]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 5:57pm

I think we all need to call the Mormon hotline. According to BWW banner, they have the answers.

If you don't what you're looking for there, there's always Tazberism.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 5:59pm

If you need proof of any kind, you don't have religious faith, Jane.

I'm not ignoring your posts, but there are other people posting comments in this thread, right?

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 6:03pm

And I will add this...

If you're trying to get me (or anyone else in the world) to believe what you believe, then you are attempting to "organize" a religion.

...and you're creeping me out, so stop it!



Seriously, you're no less guilty of "organizing faith" than anyone else... except maybe you don't torture people over hot coals or start a crusade if they don't agree with you're own religion.

At least I hope not. We'll leave that to those other organized religions. The ones that creep me out.

Updated On: 10/14/08 at 06:03 PM

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 6:03pm

"I'm not ignoring your posts, but there are other people posting comments in this thread, right?"

Yes there are. I was joking around about you ignoring me because my answers are kind of silly in a way, in my attempt to be funny.

excuse me.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 6:05pm

You are forgiven, my daughter.

Now go into the world and sin no more.

I bless thee.

[Sister George]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 6:10pm

Sorry I said I was heading into semantics.....

But just to explain my inclusion of "...and I'm presuming by this you mean that personal faith can include an absence of god." was purely to clarify why I didn't think the Oxford English Dictionary definition of religion wasn't appropriate for what I thought you were describing as religion.

I do appreciate it is not possible to prove a neagtive.


Again with the joys of semantics the reason I don't like the definition of a "personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices" is because it uses the word it's describing in it's definition.

I just think religion is too synonomous with god; when I think what you are describing is a personal belief or perception?

Updated On: 10/14/08 at 06:10 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 6:23pm

"I just think religion is too synonomous with god"

Only those religions that have a god (or gods).

As lame as this may sound, George Lucas was onto something with The Force. It's not a god. It's not even something we should worship.

It is a higher "force" that is larger than all of us. It binds and connects everything in the universe. It goes beyond science or logic. It is something that we merely must trust.

Not that I'm a Star Wars geek or anything. Or a George Lucasian.

I just thought his was a fascinating answer to one of those "bigger questions."

I love discussing answers to those questions. Searching for better meanings, clearer definitions. Renewing my own faith, challenging it, strengthening it. Questioning it. Even redefining it as I get older and become more aware.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 6:49pm

I don't understand why the concept of infinite regression can be applied to the Big Bang ("oh YEAH? what was there BEFORE THE BIG BANG?") to prove the existence of god, but the same concept is dismissed when applied to god. Why does god get to exist forever, just be there forever, without ever having been made, but the universe just couldn't have been in existence, forever?

"Oh, well namo, that's FAITH!"

No, that's a copout.

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:03pm

"but the universe just couldn't have been in existence, forever?"

When people say that, I always tell them that, yes, it's been here forever, but it had to have started out at one point. BEFORE it was there forever, what was here and how did it get here?

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:16pm

I want to know where all the missing socks go when we can't find them in the dryer.

I just gotta have faith.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:18pm

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. But god, somehow, was here forever and nobody or nothing started god because god created everything so god just was "there." But where was there? Was there here? Was god there but not here and then suddenly was here when god created here while there?

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:21pm

See, I actually understand what you just said Namo, and that's why I don't believe in that particular type of god.

So for the non believers of god, what started the whole thing, and how did it get here to start it?

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:22pm

" But god, somehow, was here forever and nobody or nothing started god because god created everything so god just was "there." "

Jesus, Namo, you sound like Vicky Pollard!



Tell me, what makes you think "God" = "Religion" or "Faith?"

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:26pm

Despite my earlier post about nothing, I find it impossible to conceive of the idea of nothing. The very idea of nothing means SOMETHING was there. Therefore, I think there was ALWAYS something there - just a different something than what's there now...

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:27pm

[Sister George]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:28pm

Apologies I meant to say I just think the word religion is too synonomous with god.

"As lame as this may sound, George Lucas was onto something with The Force. It's not a god. It's not even something we should worship.

It is a higher "force" that is larger than all of us. It binds and connects everything in the universe. It goes beyond science or logic."

I do appreciate that science and logic are a 'faith' based on a notion of perception, but I do think they have the potential to allow us to better understand the bigger questions and allow us to better suggest answers to them.

(and on a facetious level, I do think people who believe in organised religions' description of creation as a 'science' should then not be allowed to fly on planes developed by science and logic - they should have there own 'wing and a prayer' airline...)

For my own definition of 'the force' based on popular culture I'll go with Jerry Springer the Opera, quoting William Blake on Milton - "Energy is pure delight; Nothing is wrong and Nothing is right"

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:31pm

I have trouble accepting the remark "was always there". For me, even something that was always there, had to start at one point.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:35pm

I have a problem with "Always" and "Forever," Jane! They are not scientific terms. They are terms of faith.

I have a problem with the song by Heatwave, too. But that's different.

And Sister George---I love "Wing & A Prayer" airline! Too funny. Do they fly nonstop? If so, sign me up! Will they give me a ticket issued on faith? Or do I need to pay cash like the other non-believing pedestrian travelers?

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:38pm

"I have a problem with "Always" and "Forever," Jane! They are not scientific terms. They are terms of faith."

Then why do you have a problem with them?

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:39pm

I'm not saying the universe as we know it was always there - there was SOMETHING there before it - but I can't think it was NOTHING - SOMETHING must have been there. Like Maria says, "nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could"

And you had me with the George Lucas thing -- until I remembered mitichlorians or whatever the hell it was that was the equivalent of saying there's no freaking Santa Claus for this Jewish boy!

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:40pm

They are not easily answered or explained.

...except by faith!


And jasonf---I love the Sound of Music quote.

R&H... now that's a religion I can get behind!

Updated On: 10/14/08 at 07:40 PM

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:45pm

Well, thanks for the thread. I gotta tell ya, this is something I think about a lot. And it kills me that my mind can't imagine "nothing" because, I believe that there had to be "nothing" before there was "something."

But I won't go on anymore-it shall remain a mystery.......

[Sister George]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 7:51pm

'I find it impossible to conceive of the idea of nothing. The very idea of nothing means SOMETHING was there. Therefore, I think there was ALWAYS something there - just a different something than what's there now...'


I think this is similar to the earlier difficulty with how do you explain red to a colour blind person?

It is quite simple to explain the principle of nothing but as we can't experience it - it's very difficult to contemplate - I have the same issue with infinity - I get the principle but my brain is just too small to really contemplate it

But I think both are beautiful theorys.


As for 'wing and a prayer airlines' - They are happy to give you a ticket based on faith but strangely somehow the catholic planes tend to be made out of rather ornate gold....

Updated On: 10/14/08 at 07:51 PM

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 10/15/08 at 12:20am

Sorry for this long post!!!

I have had a problem distinguishing between "religion" and "organized religion" for a long time. Since "evolution" is on the table, I'll just say that how "organized religion" evolved from a community of shared "faith" to what it became over the centuries and what it is today is proof of one thing: the stupidity of mankind.

I was raised a Catholic (she embarrassingly admits), attended Catholic schools for 18 years, taught in 2 Catholic colleges, blah, blah, blah. My family was very devout, went to church EVERY Sunday AND Holy Day of Obligation, loved the Pope...I could go on, but you get it.

While I am sure that a lot of my emotional and psychological "issues" came from the distorted teachings of the Catholic Church, I also believe that the values and behavioral guidance I learned from the religion my parents chose for me had a positive impact on me. That's because my parents were moral beings who saw their "religion" as an extension of what they themselves believed to be the appropriate standards by which to live. They were generous, kind, compassionate, loving, ethical and so forth. They didn't "blindly" adhere to the "rules" of the church; but rather the church reinforced their code of conduct.

I give you this exposition because they raised 4 kids. Only one remained a Catholic (but a whacked-out Catholic who thinks Jesus speaks directly to him, so whatever he chooses to do is "correct" because he has the "big guy's" approval. This brother is sort of the "Richard Nixon" of the family: "If the president does it, then it's not illegal!")

My other brother was an atheist but is now willing to admit to agnosticism (and he is married to a Muslim.) My sister and I practice Buddhism. Although it is debated whether Buddhism IS actually a "religion," in many circles, it is accepted as one. In Buddhism, there is no deity. The "teachings" of Buddha are believed to be the words of an ordinary human being who sought enlightenment and tried to help others to achieve it.

Buddhism demands that you seek the answers to any questions within yourself. Although there are "Four Noble Truths," there are no "commandments," no absolutes you tack on your wall and check every so often to see if anything you've done falls into one category or the other.

I do not belong to a sangha, but my sister does. The way I look at it is is that I practice Buddhism as a "religion." My sister practices Buddhism as an "organized religion." She attends regular "services," performs works of charity and compassion with members of her faith community, meditates as a group (as well as on her own), and so forth.

I do not need to have others "validate" my beliefs in order for them to have meaning for me. But I found something that helps me to contemplate the questions as well as the answers. I do that by reading, meditating and discussing...on my own, not as a member of a sangha. My sister, on the other hand, desires that sense of community and feels that the discipline of a "philosophical structure" helps her to stay focused and strong. But she doesn't need the validation of others either; but she does appreciate the support of a like-minded group of people.

I also love how questions like "Where did we come from?" and "What has always been?" were answered by Buddha with complete silence. The point being "This is not important when one is seeking enlightenment."

It's knowing which questions are worth living for that matters, not what the answers are.