'Religion' in our lives.- Page 3

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 1:28pm

"It's the people who take religion TOO SERIOUSLY who are the problem."

Yes Weez, but it's still basically their religion that's causing the problem. I know, this could go around in circles. I'm just not a fan of organized religion.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 1:32pm

I STILL don't understand the distinction between religion and organized religion.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 1:36pm

Religion is a personal belief in God(s) and a moral code. Organized religion is listening to man's preaching that if you don't believe in their "God(s) and moral code" then you are not a worthy human being.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 1:36pm

i tend to agree, phyllis. a religion is by its very nature organized. i could see making a differentiation between spirituality and religion which i think does exist, but to try to split hairs over religion and organized religion is like trying to pass bruce villanch through the eye of a needle.

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 1:39pm

I probably have the definition of the word religion wrong, because I consider it to be spirituality. We can all have a certain amount of it but it's a personal thing, whereas an organized religion to me, has a name and a set of rules.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 1:40pm

"trying to pass bruce villanch through the eye of a needle."

Wasn't that the whole purpose of his appearnace on Celebrity Fit Club?

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 1:50pm

I disagree with those who say there is no distinction between religion and organized religion.

Take, if you will, the distinction between crime and organized crime. They're not mutually exclusive, but neither are they the same thing.

It would seem that some want to imply that if you're not a card-carrying member of an organized, widely recognized faith that you're not religious--merely, at best, "spiritual."

A trip to the dictionary tells me that religion is "the service and worship of God . . . commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance; a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices."

Note that phrase "a personal OR institutionalized system."

We can all define the term for ourselves, of course. But not for one another.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 1:53pm

Well, you can, actually. But I don't have to agree with you.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 1:57pm

i disagree.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 2:18pm

Yes, but you're a god, Papa. You don't get to decide. We all get to make up our minds whether to follow you or not.

Sit tight; we'll let you know.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 2:21pm

guess i picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue.

[Mistress Overdone]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 3:13pm

"It's the people who take religion TOO SERIOUSLY who are the problem."

Yes Weez, but it's still basically their religion that's causing the problem. I know, this could go around in circles. I'm just not a fan of organized religion.

I'll have to disagree with that one... put the word "fundamentalist" in front of any sort of belief system, religious or otherwise, and it's clear the problem is with the person practicing, not the practice itself.

Let's try it:

-Fundamentalist Mormon
-Fundamentalist vegan
-Fundamentalist Republican
-Fundamentalist pro-lifer
-the list goes on...

Add the the idea that "I'm always right and if you don't agree you're WRONG" to any sort of belief - from belief in a superior sports team to belief in gun ownership - and you have the makings of a scary situation.

It's not the religion that causes the problem. It's the narrow-mindedness.

[Sister George]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 3:53pm

Apologies – a long dull post ahead but there are a few things in best12bars earlier post which I wanted to discuss

...'I think faith is very important. Believing in the things we don't or can't understand drives us forward as people. It elevates us to new heights and inspires us to persevere.'...

I don’t think believing in things that we don’t or can’t understand us has inspired or elevated us – I think questioning this blind faith is actually what has elevated us and inspired us.

Faith was once useful in trying to comfort us, as the world was full of threats such as storms, disease, lighting; and religion which required faith, which by its very nature is unquestioning, answered these inexplicable processes.

But I would say that a curiosity in the things we don't or can't understand has driven us forward as people. It has literally elevated us to new heights and inspired us to persevere.

...'A fundamental (simple) example: Dogs are color blind. For their species certain colors don't exist. But we (as humans) can see those colors. Our reality is different than theirs. Do you suppose for a moment that there are things we humans can't see or hear, simply because we're humans? I think it's a big possibility that we aren't experiencing all that there is in life or in this world. They aren't made "visible" to us.'...

Yes I agree and they are many dimensions beyond 2D and 3D that humans can't currently contemplate and that we are only beginning to learn about, but it's not faith that is driving this, it is science (and what discovered that Dogs are colour blind - faith or science?)

...'I look to religion and faith to help answer the bigger questions that can't ever be answered by science.'...

What bigger questions have ever been answered by faith? The great truths we are discovering about the universe again are being driven by science not faith.


...'Those type of organized institutions of faith go against everything that's being taught in their own "bibles"'...

There is a certain revisionism occurring - people try and impose societies current values on the bible and largely can because the bible is so contradictory for every ‘thou shalt not kill’ there is an ‘eye for an eye’ and a request to stone people to death.


...'But I try not to confuse "organized religion" with religion itself (which is a wonderful thing).'...

Why is religion a wonderful thing?

...'Believing or having faith, despite "the perceived facts" is a wonderful ability. It's a gift we've been given as human beings.'...

What gift is this – how has this helped us? Faith requires us to close our minds rather than open them.

[nygrl232]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:10pm

You're not god. You can take my word for it--this is 12 years of Catholic school talking.

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:10pm

"What bigger questions have ever been answered by faith? The great truths we are discovering about the universe again are being driven by science not faith"

I agree wholeheartedly. To me, faith is based on what might be, what might exist. By definition alone -"Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea"

I took that definition from the first line on google of "faith"

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:11pm

keep that kinda talk up, nycglr, and i will so paddle your plaid skirted bottom!

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:13pm

I think religion CAN be a wonderful thing if taken along with science. My fiancee and I are two different religions: I'm Jewish, she's Catholic. We've had MANY discussions about how to raise the children and have come to the conclusion that while neither of us are crazy about the "organized" part of our religions, we both understand that our moral compasses and what makes us who we are today came in part from religion. It's when people refuse to see beyond the Bible they carry around in front of them, or, as I said earlier, are too dumb to think for themselves, that religion becomes a problem.

Sister George, I think you missed best12's point with the dog. It's not that faith will lead to seeing or understanding those other things we can't see, but if used properly, should stretch us to understand there's more to the world than our own narrow viewpoint (which is what most fundementalists believe). I think his point is that if you can't possibly explain to a person who is color blind what the color "red" is - they have no frame of reference. At the same time, there can be things that we CAN'T perceive that WE have no frame of reference for: that's not science, that's faith.

To extend that example, say the color-blind person for an instant sees a flash of red- say a light hits their eye just right and they see it. They would be at a loss to explain what it was they saw -- perhaps those things we can't see are shown to us for a moment but we have no frame of reference to explain those things. Religion and faith step in here to give an explanation for it. If whatever that thing is (be it a child cured of cancer or a ghost, for example) defies our normal parameters for explanation, then faith is something comforting to rely on for that explanation. Trouble comes, though, when people start foisting that faith on others, saying their "explanation" is the only way.

I don't know if I got my point across there or not - this isn't easy to explain...

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:19pm

Jason, I think faith is something you WANT to believe. It can be based on something that is literally impossible or not true, but it's something that suits you to believe in.

I don't mean any offense with my next statement but we do not know if the things in the bible really happened. Some people wrote that book. However, if the stories in the bible suit you, you choose to believe them. They may be total fabrications, no? Yet some people base their entire lives on those stories because they have faith. Nothing wrong with that.

I just need more proof than that.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:25pm

Jane - I agree with you 100%. I'm just trying to give my thought process on what I think faith is. I've ALWAYS believed the Bible is nothing more than somewhat decent literature.

Since this is a theater board, isn't faith believin' what you can't see?

[Sister George]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:41pm

...'I think religion CAN be a wonderful thing if taken along with science. My fiancee and I are two different religions: I'm Jewish, she's Catholic. We've had MANY discussions about how to raise the children and have come to the conclusion that while neither of us are crazy about the "organized" part of our religions, we both understand that our moral compasses and what makes us who we are today came in part from religion.'...


This still doesn't specify why religion can be a wonderful thing?

In terms of gaining a moral compass from religion - I hope you mean that you selectively picked and chose elements of religion to form your moral compass, as I'm sure I don't need to mention the many elements of the bible that I think we now find morally repulsive, - we gain our morals from many elements.

I personally don't need the threat of hell or the reward of heaven to treat people with respect and treat them as I would like to be treated.


...'I think his point is that if you can't possibly explain to a person who is color blind what the color "red" is - they have no frame of reference. At the same time, there can be things that we CAN'T perceive that WE have no frame of reference for: that's not science, that's faith.'...

I'm afraid I'm still not sure I understand this because I think we can explain to a colour blind person what the colour red is, we might not yet be able to allow them to experience it, but we could describe it.

What things can we not percieve or reference through faith?

To take the examples or 'ghosts' or a 'child recovering from cancer' - whilst faith would instantly acknowledge this as a reassurance of their faith so case closed, science would take it as a staring point and an opportunity to explore why and what actually occurred.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:43pm

Sister George - yes, first of all, we do pick and choose what works from religion, and if I'm being honest, most of what I was taught in Hebrew School WAS good morals.

Please explain what red is as though you were talking to someone who had never seen it.

[nygrl232]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:47pm

Oh gee, I thought we were quoting movies.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:54pm

Well, I don't feel like defending my post line by line. Either you agree with it or not. I think jasonf has done a wonderful job at understanding what I was trying to say.

"What bigger questions have ever been answered by faith?" -- Sister George.

ANSWER: Quite a few. Why are we here? Why do we live? What's the point of it?

Science can never and will never answer those "bigger questions."

And Namo, maybe you haven't seen someone lose faith in everything and "literally" (as you say) die. Not from any disease, but from a lack of faith in anything or anyone around them. I've seen it happen with my own eyes.

[Sister George]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:57pm

With so many morals to choose from with a religion, it's not religion which has chosen which morals work and which don't - it humans so I think we have gained our morals from experience not religion.

Ok if this a person that is colour blind I would explain that in the way that they can see colours such as yellow and blue, other people can see a colour called red, which is a differing colour.

As I said we they can't experience it but they can have the principle of red explained to them in much the same way as we can experience 2 dimensions and 3 dimensions, we can't experience a fourth dimension but we can understand the principle.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/14/08 at 4:59pm

"I personally don't need the threat of hell or the reward of heaven to treat people with respect and treat them as I would like to be treated."

Sister George, you're talking about a mandate from organized religion. Maybe you can't distinguish between "organized religion" and religion, but I can (and do).

And they're not the same thing.