Should something be done about Charles Knipp/Shirley Q. Liquor?- Page 3
Should something be done about Charles Knipp/Shirley Q. Liquor?
Phyllis Rogers Stone
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/16/07
#50don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:15pm
Okay, what is the question?
I dunno. Maybe why do people who should know better celebrate this minstrel show?
#51don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:21pm
Dunno. You'd have to ask them. Shirley Q was first shown to me by a straight black woman. I can't tell you specifically what she found funny about it.
But by "people who should know better," do you mean gay audiences, among whom this character first gained popularity? (Assuming that's the case; I honestly don't know much about him/her.)
I'm not being facetious, btw, though possibly dense. I do find that sometimes, on certain topics, the outrage obscures the point being made.
If the question is literally as simple as "Do you find this funny," it would appear that for most respondents the answer is no. If it's truly "Should something be done," as stated in the original post, well, I'm at a loss as to what that could possibly mean.
TheatreDiva90016
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/10/04
#52don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:26pmShe needs to be hosed down and scrubbed, really hard.
#53don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:26pm
If I came to find that Knipps was racist, I would not listen to SQL ever again. I believe intent is important in the art I choose to partake in. It has been my understanding that he is not.
Well, what IS his intent, if not to paint all black women as "welfare cheats"?
#54don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:28pmpaint? paint????
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
MrMidwest
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/8/05
#55don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:40pm
"If it's truly "Should something be done," as stated in the original post, well, I'm at a loss as to what that could possibly mean."
Just to be clear, I'm not for banning Knipp from doing what he does. Basically, what I'm asking is, do people think that efforts should be made to get Knipp to retire the character, and, if so, which methods should be used to accomplish that?
#56don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:43pm
gawd! i answered this! why aren't you people organizing??? spit spot.
i think "days without gays until shirley q. liquor/charles knipps is either taken off the public airways and publicly flogged or shot and killed by a firing squad comprised of angry gay midgets armed with rifles that are taller than they are for his heinous offense to blacks, gays, jews, dogs and marmosets" is probably the way to go.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
Phyllis Rogers Stone
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/16/07
#57don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:43pm
Well, I'm not necessarily outraged, just completely confounded by Shirley Q and her fans, as I am every time it's brought up.
If the question is literally as simple as "Do you find this funny," it would appear that for most respondents the answer is no. If it's truly "Should something be done," as stated in the original post, well, I'm at a loss as to what that could possibly mean.
You make a good point there. I can't speak for Mr Midwest, but I don't know that he was really suggesting something "be done." In the same way I said "people who should know better," it may be more a turn of phrase than anything.
Maybe I'm not the right person to be answering these questions, because I DON'T find it funny, I DON'T see the satire, I DON'T see it as anything but trading on ugly racial stereotypes.
MrMidwest
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/8/05
#58don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:59pm
"The adamant refusal of Knipp and other white folks to acknowledge the possibility that the character might legitimately insult members of their own community (their refusal aided and abetted by LGBT talking androids, of course) is the root of the problem here, not some insistence on blaming poor, innocent Charles Knipp for the problems of the world.
You know, when I do something that offends large numbers of people I claim to want to live in fellowship with, I stop doing it. But, considering that Knipp is making a buck here, I guess that option is off the table. I said earlier that I wasn't interested in boycotts, but comments like those above make me inclined to revise my position, as they fairly deliberately misstate exactly what someone like Knipp does for a living."
http://www.ebogjonson.com/archives/2007/04/is_that_you_shi.php
#59don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 6:28pm
RuPaul on the subject:
from http://www.bradfordshellhammer.com/archives/pg.65.RuPaul.7.8.04.pdf
It’s unlikely that a major label would have approved of the
presence of Shirley Q. Liquor on Red Hot. Liquor, a Southern
black woman with 19 children who speaks in “Ebonics,”
provides several interludes between tracks on the album.
Portrayed in shabby drag and blackface by Chuck Knipp, a
white man, she has proved to be a lightning rod at appearances
around the country. The character, and the venues that
book her (mostly gay bars), have been widely criticized as
racist. RuPaul, however, is one of her strongest defenders.
“When I heard what she was doing, I could feel the love
for black culture,” Ru says. “I know that character. I grew up
with that woman. I think Shirley Q. Liquor is a comic genius.
If she were racist, she would not be on my album.”
_______________________________________________
From the wiki entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Knipp
In 2004, Knipp was removed from the Divas Rock Atlanta concert following protests from gay non-profit groups.“I know the purpose of the event is to try to bring the community together," said Linda Ellis, executive director of the Atlanta Lesbian Cancer Initiative, "but there is nothing about [Knipp’s] performance that brings people together." The event lost $60,000 in revenue Knipp had offered to donate to "In The Life Atlanta," a gay black fundraiser.
Defense
Entertainer RuPaul has long been a fan and supporter of Knipp. "Critics who think that Shirley Q. Liquor is offensive are idiots. Listen, I've been discriminated against by everybody in the world: gay people, black people, whatever. I know discrimination, I know racism, I know it very intimately. She's not racist, and if she were, she wouldn't be on my new CD."[17] In her blog, RuPaul adds: "I am very sensitive to issues of racism, sexism and discrimination. I am a gay black man, who started my career as a professional transvestite in Georgia, twenty years ago."[18]
Boston Phoenix journalist Dan Kennedy awarded Boston government official Jerome Smith the dubious Muzzle Award for his part in leading to the cancellation of Knipp's scheduled 2004 Boston performance.[19]
Writer David Holthouse, anti-racist investigator for the "Intelligence Report" from the Southern Poverty Law Center, stated "Knipp is not a white supremacist" and that Knipp "invites the audience to sympathise with a single Black mother." An in-depth article was printed in the June, 2007 edition of Rolling Stone Magazine.
The New York Blade criticized GLAAD for condemning Knipp, stating, "We commend GLAAD for condemning racism, but we question whether the organization’s goal is best attained by joining this particular fight."[20]
John Strausbaugh, author of Blackface, Whiteface, Insult & Imitation in American Popular Culture, explores Liquor's act in his book.
Knipp concedes that his performances as Shirley can make people uncomfortable. Knipp has said his show is about "lancing the boil of institutionized racism" and that "treating African Americans as if they have a disease is the real racism" because black people are "more than intelligent enough to discern the nuance" of his performances. He's also said that "many people thought that Harriet Beecher-Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin was and still is perceived as racist, despite being the probable artistic genesis of emotional support against slavery in the 19th century."
___________________________________________
from http://www.queerty.com/charles-knipp-glad-to-be-boogeyman-20070215/
Homo-journo Jasmyne Cannick helped lead the crusade against Knipp's act, a move that led GLAAD to break its silence and issue a statement against Knipp - a statement many accused of being disingenuous, considering their silence on the Isaiah Washington **** storm. Of his particular **** storm, Knipp had this to say:
"I don't mind critics. I'm not scared of controversy…I'm so glad black and white folk, especially the gay community, are finally getting the REAL discussion started. I'm glad to be the 'boogeyman' if Americans of various races will finally speak TRUTH to each other. This politically correct **** has done nothing but silence the conversation that black and white Americans have needed to have for WAY too long now."
----The first comment on this page interestingly tries to compare Snipp to Ted Danson (regarding the roast of Whoopi) as an attack. What people don't realize is that Ted Danson doing blackface that night was Whoopi's idea.
MrMidwest
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/8/05
#60don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 6:37pm
Margaret Cho has apparently defended his act as well, though I can't find any quotes from her on the subject.
"Comedian Margaret Cho and pop icon RuPaul have spoken out in favor of Knipp."
http://www.queerty.com/ny-blade-not-down-with-glaad-being-down-on-shirley-q-20070226
#61don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 7:37pm
Unfortunately, most stereotypes bear a kernel of truth.
As a black man, I'm far more offended by self-identifying black rappers who lace their lyrics with some derivative of the word "n*". I read once that a BET writer of all people took umbrage at Knipp's SQL character. That's the cultural wasteland known as BET mind you.
There are far more pressing concerns than the societal impact of some fat fart who gets his rocks off doning a dress while mimicking somebody's great aunt the Elderess Lesteretta Jackson who teaches youth Sunday school classes at Greater Mt. Zion Apostolic Reformed United Holiness Church of the Blessed Redeemer and Tangueray and Juice.
Now, tell yo momma I axed how she duuurin'!
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#62don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 7:50pm
I wasn't going to get drawn into this again and I don't really feel like calling RuPaul a world class enabler (but look! I just did!), but the fact of the matter is if some people find the act racist they find it racist and RuPaul isn't the issuer of any sort of official "This Is Not Racist" Card.
Ru does make me want to engage in an episode of "Really, RuPaul? Starring FindingNamo":
"Critics who think that Shirley Q. Liquor is offensive are idiots." Really?
"Listen, I've been discriminated against by everybody in the world..." Really, RuPaul? Everybody in the world.
"[G]ay people, black people, whatever." Whatever, RuPaul? Really?
"I know discrimination, I know racism, I know it very intimately. She's not racist, and if she were, she wouldn't be on my new CD." Really, RuPaul? REALLY? Oh, you have a new CD? Nice plug, really.
In her blog, RuPaul adds: "I am very sensitive to issues of racism, sexism and discrimination. I am a gay black man, who started my career as a professional transvestite in Georgia, twenty years ago." Really, RuPaul? Ergo what you say goes? Really?
#63don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 7:57pm
Namo--pseudo-celebrity word is bond bro!
Honestly, I find Knipp far more entertaining and insightful into the nuances of southern "ish" than RuPaul. That said, I've never seen either perform live nor probably ever will.
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#64don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 8:06pm
I actually saw Ru twice. Once just as Super Model was about to break, and at the horrible March on Washington in '92. Fab performances both times. But it's a widely held view that he went a bit around the bend and is now a singularly disagreeable human being.
I don't want to rehash the whole Shirley argument again, since I took part with lengthy posts in at least two threads about Knipp in the past on Broadwayworld, but the lengthy Rolling Stone feature they did last year made it abundantly clear that Knipp hadn't done a particularly deep analysis of either the character or its assorted meanings in the larger culture of the US.
He was hired by several rich (white, southern, conservative) performers to don the blackface and big afro wig at their private parties and IT SUDDENLY OCCURRED TO HIM that he was supposed to be the black fly in the mashed potatoes and the white people were LAUGHING AT BLACK STEREOTYPES BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED THEM TO BE TRUE.
Knipp proclaimed that if that was the way people were going to take it then he might just have to retire the character because seriously, that isn't how he meant it at ALL and RuPaul had given him an official Black OK and so apparently Knipp had felt free to dismiss the criticism by queer activists of several colors (not just white) because, well, Ru said they're idiots, right? Knipp also added that he was praying to God for the answers of just what he was supposed to be doing with the character and was awaiting a response. Seriously.
I came away from the interview convinced that Knipp is not an insightful person and not a little CRAZY.
So ENJOY, those who think long lists of phony Ebonic sounding names of welfare children delivered by a big white man in black face isn't racist because they think it's funny and RuPaul has given them permission to laugh at them.
Luckily this doesn't preclude my right to call that spade exactly what it is, a shovelful of crap.
Phyllis Rogers Stone
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/16/07
#65don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 10:14pm
If the misspelled words weren't enough to make me giggle with glee, the part where he's compared to Ellen DeGeneres and Rita Rudner (!) take it to a whole new level.
#66don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 10:18pm
Well, as long as we're allowing SOME instances of blackface as NON-racist, where do I file a request to classify Judy Garland's blackface performances as NON-racist as well.
Given Judy's lifelong support of civil rights and progressive causes, I don't think she should be labeled as racist because of this swinging rendition of "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot." Judy Racist? Not if Shirley Q. Liquor isn't!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Y2Ll24GRU
#67don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/6/09 at 11:46pm
Namo said everything I was going to.
Go read the ROLLING STONE article.
Knipps explicitly states that he knows that some of the white southerners he performs frequently for laugh directly AT Shirley. At her. Not at the satire.
Yet he continues to perform for such audiences.
Call me idealistic for thinking a "satirist" should have the tact and integrity not to perform for audiences that he KNOWS are laughing for the wrong reasons, but that's what I think.
Especially in those instances, he is not an "artist" and he is not a "satirist," he's just a paid puppet brought in to give the audience an excuse to mock and laugh at those they deem inferior to themselves.
Sure, there more be more layers to the argument and the character, but the fact that he continues to perform for such audiences makes me unwilling to consider them, because I now know everything I need to know about the artistic merit of Charles Knipps.
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
#68don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/7/09 at 5:42am
Both Knipp and I are Libertarians. I'm not down with censorship unless it's self-imposed. I'm also atheist but perfectly content with the folly of religious TV & radio programmers.
Were I Knipp, I'd seek legal counsel to determine the practicality of bringing suit against Jaysman Cannick and those of her ilk who've conspired to create restraint of trade. If she doesn't care for his act, let her step off.
We can't shut down the messenger just because we don't like the message.
In 1991 the KKK marched through a south-central PA town where I resided at the time. I simply stayed in my home that day to the surprise of family members and colleagues who questioned why I didn't try to stop the march.
I've got bigger fish to fry.
#69don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/7/09 at 8:25am
I don't consider the protest of ordinary citizens to be censorship. They're not stopping anyone from saying anything. They're just making their opinion known. How the venue reacts to that is their own free choice.
In a free society it's just as important for people to be able to say they don't like what someone is saying as it is for that person to be able to say it in the first place. Censorship only enters into it when the government gets involved and prevents EITHER party from having their say.
#70don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/7/09 at 9:25am
Art--censorship takes on many forms from the religious type to corporations going after employees who make less than flattering disclosures about their employer via a blog.
The Vatican has tried its hand at censorship a time or two just to provide as example.
Phyllis Rogers Stone
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/16/07
#71don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/7/09 at 9:29am
Art--censorship takes on many forms from the religious type to corporations going after employees who make less than flattering disclosures about their employer via a blog.
How is the latter censorship? Isn't it just a consequence of exercising free speech?
#72don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/7/09 at 11:05am
Exactly, Phyllis. That employee is still free to post those less than flattering things. Pressure from the company, including dismissal are just consequences of that.
Censorship, to me, is when an authority takes your writing/act/painting/opinion/whatever and has the power to edit it, without your input or control over those edits, and doesn't allow you to release your writing/act/painting/opinion/whatever in the unedited form, or at all...anywhere.
Knipp can still do his act anywhere that will let him. A venue not letting him perform there is not censorship. Asking a venue to not let him perform there is not censorship.
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#73don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/7/09 at 12:32pm
I'm a first amendment absolutist. Which means Knipp is free to do his act and I have the freedom to say that I think Knipp is a myopic, disingenuous racist. To pretend that smearing on blackface in this culture is not an incredibly loaded act is just the first of the offensive tactics he uses. The second is his "because I said so, that's why" line of reasoning. "This isn't racist!" he proclaims. Well, actually yes it is.
With the decades of consciousness raising that have gone on, just pretending that something isn't what it is no longer cuts it. That some people of color and one freckled amazonian drag queen find humor in it doesn't change that.
For me, the thing that's most disappointing is how many people in the gay community refuse to even confront the implications in the act, as if shrugging them off makes them go away and then they're free to laugh along with racism in a non-racist way.
Phyllis Rogers Stone
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/16/07
#74don't just sit there, do something!
Posted: 1/7/09 at 1:36pm
I still want to know who these people protesting Rita Rudner (!) are.
Back to a mention on Page 1, I think, of some "Sparkle" character.. I checked out that crap on you tube, which is essentially a rip off of Shirley Q (complete with the "how you durring?," but I guess that's how black folks talk, so whatever) with a skinny troll in blackface.
Someone asked this in the comments section, "Why do white people do things like this and not think it's racist?"
The person who created the "character" responded, "The same reason black people do it (white chicks) Oh but i know, Black people can not be racist can they? LOL"
So there you have it. LOL
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