Should something be done about Charles Knipp/Shirley Q. Liquor?- Page 2

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/5/09 at 12:12pm

Better start working on that sibilant S!

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 1/5/09 at 12:18pm

i have 4 hours of sylvester and tweety waiting at home.

[nexttoelectric]

Posted: 1/5/09 at 12:19pm

Hey papa? wanna play hide the canary?


and before anyone asks, yes, my dick and yellow and feathered.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 1/5/09 at 12:21pm

and tiny.

like a canary.

thank, i'll pass.

[nexttoelectric]

Posted: 1/5/09 at 12:22pm

no, its actually the size of and shape of a canary.

[nexttoelectric]

Posted: 1/5/09 at 12:23pm

ok i admit, i just stapled a canary to my crotch

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/5/09 at 5:16pm

For the record, here's one black woman who is not a fan

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 1/5/09 at 5:32pm

Betty Butterfield is also extremely funny, especially if you are Southern.

Betty's review of The Passion of the Christ had me in stitches. She reminds me of so many people I knew growing up.
"Lord, I Just Got Back From Seeing the Passion of the Lord..."

[nmartin]

Posted: 1/5/09 at 6:56pm

I know exactly what you mean, Mr. Matt. I assume you also grew up in the South. Hell, honey, I still live there.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 10:10am

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 10:33am

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 10:35am

I don't think this one is Shirley. It's just a picture someone used on a fan page.

[Calvin]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 10:39am

If NBC doesn't book him on the Today Show, we might as well trash the entire Bill of Rights.

LOLARE!

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 10:56am

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 11:03am

I wish I could find a picture of the episode of Gimmie a Break where Samantha put Joey in blackface.

[MrMidwest]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 11:16am

Since you seem to be bothered by what Knipps does, do you think efforts should be made to encourage him to stop performing the character, Phyllis? And what could be done that wouldn't make the Liquor character more famous?

Is just expressing discomfort with it all enough?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 11:27am

That's a good question, and it's one that doesn't have an easy answer. I believe that yes, he is entitled to perform the character by rights of free speech and I'm not comfortable saying "ban him!" because of that.

I think the very nature of the character prevents him from becoming more famous, though, as he's generally called upon to perform at things like Southern Decadence and whatnot. It's not like he's going to be on the Tonight Show anytime soon.

I guess what I find most troubling are the amount of gay white men who should know better. Especially those who are quick to denounce other people for their alleged misogyny, sexism, homophobia, etc. My neck bristles when I hear people talk about all gay white racism out there and I'm always quick to denounce that, but when we've lots of gay white folks celebrating Shirley I just want to throw my hands up in the air.

I also find it interesting there hasn't been one defense of Knapp since posted the the link to what Pam Spaulding has to say. I'm sure there are those black people out there who think Shirley's great, but my hunch that it's a VERY small contingent.

Updated On: 1/6/09 at 11:27 AM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 2:28pm

Did I think that there weren't any black people offended by SQL? No. That's not what I said. I said that I had only ever heard outrage from white people. But, I am smart enough, Midwest, to know that everything offends someone--especially anything satirical/controversial.

I read the Pam's House blog posted here. I respect the feelings expressed there. It does provoke thought over the matter. At the same time, I have a hard time telling any artist that they must present only the "agreed upon" representations in their satire/art. That artists are responsible for the great ignorance in the world. Artists are often the mirror to life--not the cause. People have been offended by Jack on Will & Grace. By The Birdcage. By anything that THEY feel represents gay people in a "bad" way. Where does it end? Where DO we draw the line? Who says? Who makes that decision?

Those are good questions because, yes, there are certain times when we should speak out against harmful, hateful things. But we should never support censorship. And we should never demand that everyone view art the same way as everyone of us comes at it from a different pov. I never found Jack on W&G offensive. Others did. There you go.

A barrage of images and references to blackface have been made in this thread without any comment to the motivations/contexts behind EACH reference. All references have been treated equally, which I believe is a mistake. Somehow, the consensus has been that RDJr's performance in TT is ok. But that's somehow different than all the rest because of...? My point being that blackface isn't some kind of rule--"you NEVER do that". Well, there seem to be exceptions--what are they? What are they based on? Does everyone agree? Are there people offended by TT? If so, how does that affect the conversation?

I was introduced to SQL by a black, gay friend, who I have had many conversations with about race. I had no reason to doubt that there was a distinction to the kind of satire SQL was presenting as compared to racist jokes. And, in our discussions, we talked about how SQL was funny to us as a satire of older, poor, Southern women--SQL sounds as much like my grandmother as she does my friend's grandmother in much of the routines. Not for one second, do I think of SQL as a representation of all black women. Or of most. I think of SQL as someone more specific. And ultimately not as a black woman--but as a type of person regardless of race. Yes, there are racial stereotypes in the character. Is it only ok when Tyler Perry or Niecy Nash or other black performers talk about those in their art? Maybe it is. It would seem to be to many people. But clearly, those things are allowed to be discussed by someone.

If I came to find that Knipps was racist, I would not listen to SQL ever again. I believe intent is important in the art I choose to partake in. It has been my understanding that he is not. There may well be a number of racists who are fans of SQL, but I stand among those who are not--who have a different perspective on this character. And, I would appreciate that those of you who disagree with me at least acknowledge this. Because I'll be damned if I am to be considered a racist over this. After everything I have said, done and represented in my art, activism, etc, I would hope that you would know MY heart.

And, I think my defense comes strongest as a satirist myself. I come under fire for one of my characters. It may be benign to some of you who feel no pity for ex gays or religious right Christians, but there are people who feel my ex gay character is an attack on them. And, my character IS an attack on certain ideas and beliefs. Should I be forced to stop? Should I be protested? No. Yes. Maybe. Who's to say? I know that my audience has a variety of opinions and perspectives from which to judge my character.

And, I am not responsible for their reactions.

[MrMidwest]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 2:36pm

"Did I think that there weren't any black people offended by SQL? No. That's not what I said."

I know that's not what you said, but I don't understand what the point of saying that you've never seen a black person get outraged about it would be other than to imply that black people aren't offended by it. The fact that you personally haven't seen it happen really doesn't prove anything.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 2:45pm

I was saying that it seemed as if the people who were most offended weren't even the alleged victim of the offense. That's not to say at all that only those directly affected by something are allowed to speak out.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 3:27pm

Well, the pictures I posted were of Shirley herself, a picture I don't know (but that was used to link to Shirley's "hilarious" site) and Amos and Andy. (I don't remember what the first one was, because it's showing as a broken link on my screen). I contextualized the one from the fan page.

I was saying that it seemed as if the people who were most offended weren't even the alleged victim of the offense.

Honestly, Jerby, I can't believe that YOU would say something like that. I don't mean it as a slam; I just mean it sounds completely out of character for you. Yes, you qualify it, but you know what - it's stuff like Shirley Q that allows people to paint with the board brush of "white gay male racism," so perhaps it DOES indeed affect me. Directly.

Tropic Thunder was about an over the top Australian actor who was playing a black man in a movie. The entire movie was satirical. It wasn't like the movie itself was about a black man being played by a white actor. Frankly, I can STILL see how some might take offense at it. But I just don't think it's the same as this. At all. And - if you've seen the movie - I don't see how any thinking person can draw the parallel there.

I have a hard time telling any artist that they must present only the "agreed upon" representations in their satire/art.

I agree with you. Then again, I'm one of the people fails to see either the satire or the art in Shirley Q Liquor.

Updated On: 1/6/09 at 03:27 PM

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 3:49pm

It would seem as though the question is: Are there subjects that are beyond the pale, even for satire?

The implication seems to be that a few subjects are so weighted by history (and of course, this argument can hold true only for specific societies) that the possibility of offense--or, worse, of bigots enjoying the satire for the "wrong reasons"--is so great that they're off limits.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:02pm

It would seem as though the question is: Are there subjects that are beyond the pale, even for satire?

I don't think that's the question, though. But I don't think a fat black guy smearing on shoe polish and donning a fright wig is satire.

But, to answer the question, I don't know. I guess I don't think so. I think there are some subjects (rape, the Holocaust, AIDS to name a few) where you'd better have a really clear focus if you're doing something satirical about it, but I don't know that I personally think any topic is truly off limits.
That said, where is the satire (or the humor, for that matter) in this?

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:04pm

Okay, what is the question?

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 1/6/09 at 4:07pm

I didn't find any of that funny. At all.