The American Revolution

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 11/10/25 at 1:03pm

Looking forward to another exceptional production from Ken Burns.

Our founders would be appalled by what the MAGAts have done to our beautiful country.  But I remain confident that Democracy as it was intended will be restored soon!

FIGHT  THE  GOOD  FIGHT  !!

https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-american-revolution

Updated On: 11/10/25 at 01:03 PM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/10/25 at 1:11pm

Hm. I'm not convinced our founding fathers would be appalled. The US has only been a democracy since 1965, long after those slavekeeping misogynists had passed.

Updated On: 11/10/25 at 01:11 PM

[John Adams]

Posted: 11/11/25 at 7:38am

Jay Lerner-Z said: "The US has only been a democracy since 1965, long after those slavekeeping misogynists had passed."

Well... from a different perspective, it is because the US has always been a democracy that the country has had the freedom to change, and evolve away from the ideologies it does not condone. 

If the US had not always been a democracy, there would have been no opportunity for the Emancipation Proclamation (1863) to exist, which opened the door for all the subsequent dominoes to fall into place that eventually provided opportunity for the Civil Rights movement to exist, which in turn... etc.

Democracy is a fragile experiment that is ongoing, and is currently still an incomplete process.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/11/25 at 4:29pm

That's a valid perspective, but up to 1920 half the population did NOT have the freedom to evolve. I don't think that meets the "democracy" threshold.

[kdogg36]

Posted: 11/11/25 at 9:38pm

John Adams said: "If the US had not always been a democracy, there would have been no opportunity for the Emancipation Proclamation (1863) to exist, which opened the door for all the subsequent dominoes to fall into place that eventually provided opportunity for the Civil Rights movement to exist, which in turn... etc."

A decent society would have just treated everyone equally from the beginning. No points should be given for deciding not to treat human beings as property any longer. That should have been the default position all along.

[John Adams]

Posted: 11/12/25 at 8:51am

kdogg36 said: "A decent society would have just treated everyone equally from the beginning. No points should be given for deciding not to treat human beings as property any longer. That should have been the default position all along."

and Jay Lerner-Z said: "That's a valid perspective, but up to 1920 half the population did NOT have the freedom to evolve. I don't think that meets the 'democracy' threshold."

Yes, you're both completely accurate re: rights, recognition and equal treatment of/for human beings, but that's NOT what democracy is. 

Democracy allows for ALL opinions/beliefs, no matter if they be "right" or "wrong". Democracy is government by the people. 

When those people exercise practices that are inhumane (like slavery) it our democracy that allowed for change.

Kdogg, when you write, "No points should be given for deciding not to treat human beings as property any longer", I strongly disagree because it implies that making that decision is not an admirable one. Also, w/o our democracy the decision could not be made at all - we would have had to concede to the will of whoever was the monarch in that moment of time.

Democracy is a form of government; it's not a list of beatitudes for governing behavior. That's what laws are for. (...and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, etc.)

"...deciding not to treat human beings as property any longer" is not an example of democracy. Democracy is the tool one uses when they want to change that behavior/ideology. It's important to make that distinction.

Updated On: 11/12/25 at 08:51 AM

[John Adams]

Posted: 11/12/25 at 10:33am

PS: It's also important to note that slavery was not a universal practice throughout the entire US.

When slavery was abolished, it was abolished throughout the entirety of the US,  but that abolition was redundant in ~half the nation.

Updated On: 11/12/25 at 10:33 AM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/12/25 at 12:26pm

"Democracy allows for ALL opinions/beliefs, no matter if they be "right" or "wrong". Democracy is government by the people. "
 

Exactly! Democracy is NOT government by the men.

In any case, the OP says our founders would be appalled by what's happening now. Who cares? I'm pretty appalled by what happened THEN. These people were not saints, I think it is pretty ridiculous that we still put so much stock into what theiir intentions were. Gun rights etc. They are distant figures from the past, long since outdated.

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 11/12/25 at 2:38pm

Very excited to see this documentary about the founding of our Democracy!  

 

 

[John Adams]

Posted: 11/12/25 at 5:04pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "Democracy is NOT government by the men."

So now, you're altering your viewpoint to be about gender??

Jay Lerner-Z said: "In any case, the OP says our founders would be appalled by what's happening now. Who cares? I'm pretty appalled by what happened THEN. These people were not saints, I think it is pretty ridiculous that we still put so much stock into what theiir intentions were. Gun rights etc. They are distant figures from the past, long since outdated."

"Who Cares"??? You're "appalled by what happened THEN"??? really? appalled??? Your lack of knowledge and disrespect for my country's history is maddening.

Updated On: 11/12/25 at 05:04 PM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/12/25 at 5:51pm

I'm sorry to madden you. Personally, the glorification of Uncle Sam is what I find maddening. Also, I did not alter my stance in any way. Look back and you will see that I specifically mentioned 1920 and 1965 as the true beginnings of democracy. Important turning points at the very least.

If we disagree, that's fine - such is democracy! We are lucky.

P.S. It is also my country.

Updated On: 11/12/25 at 05:51 PM

[John Adams]

Posted: 11/14/25 at 1:04am

Jay Lerner-Z said: "Look back and you will see that I specifically mentioned 1920 and 1965 as the true beginnings of democracy. "

You have no clue what democracy is.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/14/25 at 11:36am

No, John Adams, it seems YOU have no clue as to what democracy is. Limiting the vote to white men of privilege is totally NOT in the spirit of democracy, and I think any rational person can acknowledge this.

I find your tone to be mean and condescending.

Updated On: 11/14/25 at 11:36 AM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 11/14/25 at 11:42am

John Adams said: "You have no clue what democracy is."

I think what Jay is saying is that a putative democracy that severely restricts who can vote, as the US did for many decades, doesn't count as much of a democracy at all, and I find it hard to disagree with that opinion.

I do appreciate that you're carefully trying to defend democracy itself, and not a particular society (say, slavery-era America) that claimed to be a democracy. Sloppiness about that on my part is why we disagreed about how much credit to give anyone for ending the abomination of slavery in the US. If I squint, I can just about see that it's possible to condemn a society that tolerated slavery for so long (and give no props at all for finally ending it), while giving credit to democracy (however limited at the time) for providing the path to end it.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/14/25 at 11:46am

Also a stretch to give "democracy" the sole credit, when changing things took literally the blood, sweat, and tears of many lives.

[John Adams]

Posted: 11/14/25 at 1:33pm

Again, "Democracy is a fragile experiment that is ongoing, and is currently still an incomplete process." The process of democracy facilitates the ability to create, change abolish, etc. the laws and behaviors that are being mistakenly confused with Democracy.

Democracy ≠ Rights. 'Democracy' is the catalyst that facilitated all the changes regarding 'rights'. It is not our democratic system that restricted any person/persons' rights. Individuals and groups of people operating within that system of Democracy are accountable for that.

Democracy is the unchanging catalyst that allows for change to happen under its auspices.

Updated On: 11/14/25 at 01:33 PM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/14/25 at 7:36pm

If a country today had such restrictions, would it be considered a democracy?

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/14/25 at 7:43pm

"democracy"

From the Ancient Greek…

dêmos…. "The people"

krátos… "Power"

Women are people.

[John Adams]

Posted: 11/15/25 at 10:59am

You feel my tone is "mean and condescending"?

Please re-read what you wrote, especially the  line about, “…such is democracy”! We are lucky.” How can you write that with one hand,  and yet with the other write about the birth of our democratic system, using words and phrases  like, “distant figures from the past, long since outdated.”, and even go so far as to ask, “Who cares?” 

You wrote that you were “appalled by what happened then” and you think it’s “pretty ridiculous that we still put so much stock into what their intentions were”, naming one of those intentions to be “gun rights”.

 

Click Here To Toggle Spoiler Content

The 2nd Amendment was not created to grant citizens a right to own a gun (gun ownership). It is specifically, “the right to bear arms”.

It was ratified in 1791, a time in our history when it was very important for citizens to have the right to defend themselves. AI search results state, “It reflects historical concerns about government tyranny and the need for citizens to defend themselves and their rights.”

"Government tyranny and the need for citizens to protect themselves." We haven’t needed to protect ourselves from government tyranny in a very long time. But now, our president is sending armed militia and armed ICE agents into our neighborhoods. Shots have been fired and people who were never given the opportunity to defend themselves are dead.

The people who killed them are unnamed and disguised. This is the reason for the 2nd amendment - not “gun rights”.

You somehow don’t understand that the very thing you in initially praised is directly descended to us from and by those figures from history whose ideas and actions you just completely trashed. There seems to be a disconnect with you that doesn’t allow you too see that what you so callously trashed is the very reason you can both praise and trash talk within the same breath.

…And you didn’t think I would be offended by that? I stand by my response, "You have no clue what democracy is."

Updated On: 11/15/25 at 10:59 AM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/15/25 at 12:23pm

I think we also owe a debt of gratitude to the slaves who propped up these men and enabled their power to begin with.

To quote Michelle Obama when she lived in The White House….

"I wake up every day in a house built by slaves"

Literally true, but also a metaphor for the whole American experiment.

[John Adams]

Posted: 11/15/25 at 2:00pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "I think we also owe a debt of gratitude to the slaves who propped up these men and enabled their power to begin with."

wow.

Slaves were "enablers" who "propped up" their slave masters?

...just... wow.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/15/25 at 4:39pm

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me? Again.

The slaves were the ones who put in the hard labor, which the elite then profited off. Financially, socially, politically etc.

I don't think this should be a controversial opinion.

 

[MysteriousLady]

Posted: 11/15/25 at 5:33pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "Perhaps you are misunderstanding me? Again.

The slaves were the ones who put in the hard labor, which the elite then profited off. Financially, socially, politically etc.

I don't think this should be a controversial opinion.

"

You were perfectly clear. Nothing controversial about what you said. 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/16/25 at 12:01am

Thank you.

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 11/16/25 at 12:16am

John Adams said: "Jay Lerner-Z said: "I think we also owe a debt of gratitude to the slaves who propped up these men and enabled their power to begin with."

wow.

Slaves were "enablers" who "propped up" their slave masters?

...just... wow."

Yeah, not the brightest bulb. He also said goodbye twice to BWW for the year but keeps coming back to make non-sensical, dumb statements or to prove us "wrong". He doesn't know we actually don't care about anything he has to say. JayZ is a hypocrite, he lectures people who use airplanes for traveling, he judges people for liking things he does not, tells everyone they are simply wrong instead of considering their opinion, and they are just annoying AF. He has proudly made my block list, which only the worst of the worst are on. Congrats, JayZ! I never have to see your asinine statements again nor will I have see your responses to mine. Keep draggin' him tho so he can play victim like always. He is SO MUCH like Trump it's crazy 



 

Updated On: 11/16/25 at 12:16 AM